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Discussion Starter #1
Given that the IC joining units rule states you cannot "...join units that always consist of one model....", can you join an IC to a Hive Tyrant? He can join a tyrant guard unit, therefore being a unit of greater than one?

Certainly the IC can join the Tyrant Guard and the Hive Tyrant can join as well, making a tough unit. But do you think the rules allow joining to a lone Tyrant?

Discuss!

*note* I do not espouse this tactic, nor plan to use it. I am just curious as to the general consensus on this issue.
 

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I don't have the nid codex... but a tyrant is considered a MC. And I thought MCs can't join other units regardless because of their sheer size. Maybe with the guard squad as noted I would possible think an IC can join... but individually, I would say strickly because a tyrant is a MC.
 

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I don't have the nid codex... but a tyrant is considered a MC. And I thought MCs can't join other units regardless because of their sheer size. Maybe with the guard squad as noted I would possible think an IC can join... but individually, I would say strickly because a tyrant is a MC.
This is not a rule. In previous editions you could always "Shoot the Big Ones" and in the current rulebook they use "most MCs" as an example of a single model you can't join. In the current codex it would be perfectly acceptable for a Tyranid Prime to join a unit of Carnifexs.


No.

An IC can never join a unit of 1 that is not an IC itself.
I'm not so sure on that. I've always interpretted that an IC can join unit with a single model as long as there was some other way for that unit to consist of more that a single model. As the Hive Tyrant can be accompanied by guards he is no longer ALWAYS a unit of single model and can therefore be joined by IC.
 

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It can only join when the unit is not a unit of one.

This is EXPLICITELY stated in the BRB.
 

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This is EXPLICITELY stated in the BRB.
Could you please reference this section. I appear to be overlooking it.

I do however see this:
Indepedent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles setion) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures).
The key word I'm seeing there is "always".
 

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Because if you do not take tyrant guard, then thoughout that battle the Tyrant must always remain a single unit, and therefore cannot be joined by an IC.
 

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The Tyrant is not an IC. He is a single model unit. Under BRB rules he cannot be joined.
The Tyrant is not a unit of up to 4 models.

Tyrant Guard are a seperate unit of up to 3 models that does not take up a slot on the force organization chart, and have a special rule that allows the non-IC Tyrant to join them.

A prime could join the Tyrant Guard(and a Tyrant attached) on the basis he is an independent character, but could not join the Tyrant by itself.

I can provide page numbers for all of this at request.

The really interesting bit comes if all the Tyrant Guard are killed, is the Prime and Tyrant still considered one unit then? That has no precedent nor ruling to lend weight to it.

Now for the Good: The guard can be deployed seperately of the Tyrant if you wish.
Now for the suck: Not only do the Guard count as a seperate Kill point then the Tyrant, a Tyrant cannot be deployed with Guard on the table in a Dawn of War scenario. Tyrant + Guard = 2 HQ.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
No, under the BRB, only units that can never be more than one can be joined.

To answer SHarringtons statement that the Hive Tyrant is always a single stand unit, and cannot be joined. If a hive guard unit is joined by a Hive Tyrant, can the Hive Tyrant leave? If yes, then he can't be joined by an Ic. If No, he can, since he's eligible as at some point in some circumstance he is an integrated part of a multistand unit.

I won't even try this on a battlefield, it's just an interesting discussion point. So keep it civil, if you can!

Oddly enough, there's no doubt an IC can join a Carnifex.
 

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A tyrant IS always a unit of 1. Even with tyrant guard. They are a seperate unit, joined with the tyrant as though the tyrant is an IC. This means that even when joined, he is a seperate unit of 1, just as an IC is a unit of 1, and may be singled out in CC, etc.
 

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Perhaps I should restate my quandry.

If a Tyrant is joined to a unit of Tyrant Guard, and a Tyranid Prime joins the Tyrant Guard, and later on all the Tyrant Guard are killed off, what happens to the Tyrant and the Prime?
Are they disbanded automaticlly, by ruling that they form a *now* illegal unit, or do they continue on as a unit until the prime decides to leave?

The only forseeable impact this would have is at the end of Close Combat, should the Tyranids lose (however unlikely that is), and they receive fearless wounds, do they get shared by both the Prime and the Tyrant, or is the unit disbanded and each of the models receive the whole number of fearless wounds instead of sharing them?
 

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Now for the suck: Not only do the Guard count as a seperate Kill point then the Tyrant, a Tyrant cannot be deployed with Guard on the table in a Dawn of War scenario. Tyrant + Guard = 2 HQ.
I dont think so, the rules for tyrant guard shield wall state that the tyrant can join that squad as if it were a IC, but dont say when. Therefore you should (if im not mistaken) be able to join him with the squad before deployment like any other IC to a squad. Unless the DoW rules say (I dont have my rulebook handy) that the HQ cant consist of the HQ and his bodyguard, then I dont see why you shouldnt be able to deploy the tyrant with his guard just like any other IC/body guard squad. Now I could be completly wrong but I was under the impression a IC could join a squad before deployment, in say, a transport (I know demonic assaults and DS's can do it).
 

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I dont think so, the rules for tyrant guard shield wall state that the tyrant can join that squad as if it were a IC, but dont say when. Therefore you should (if im not mistaken) be able to join him with the squad before deployment like any other IC to a squad. Unless the DoW rules say (I dont have my rulebook handy) that the HQ cant consist of the HQ and his bodyguard, then I dont see why you shouldnt be able to deploy the tyrant with his guard just like any other IC/body guard squad. Now I could be completly wrong but I was under the impression a IC could join a squad before deployment, in say, a transport (I know demonic assaults and DS's can do it).
An IC can join a squad when he's deployed, or when you declare you're keeping him in reserves, but he still counts as a seperate unit for the purposes of Dawn of War. So a space marine captain with a command squad are two HQ choices, the Tyrant and Guard are two HQ choices, a Farseer and Warlock unit are two HQ choices. Since Dawn of War only allows you do deploy one single HQ choice....

To explain this a bit, take a look at P48 (top right column). It says you can start an IC joined to a unit by deploying them in coherency with one another - but by that point, you would have had to of deployed two units to have them in coherency. So you deploy two units, then they join together. In dawn of war, you can only deploy one of them, so you can't ever take advantage of that rule.

Plus, when an IC is joined to a Troops unit, he doesn't become part of that unit for Dawn of War - so why should it work if its a HQ joining a HQ? Otherwise, you could always put two HQs out (as long as they were ICs) by joining them together and counting them as one.

Anyway, hope that helps a bit :)


/As for the OP question - I think no, an IC couldn't join a tyrant. A Tyrant is a unit that consists of a single model when purchased, even though he can then go and join other models because of a special rule. ICs on the other hand are specifically allowed by the joining rules on p48 to join other ICs. So because the Tyrant is a unit of one model, and not an IC, I'd say no. This is a grey area though, and depends on your reading of it.
 

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An IC can join a squad when he's deployed, or when you declare you're keeping him in reserves, but he still counts as a seperate unit for the purposes of Dawn of War. So a space marine captain with a command squad are two HQ choices, the Tyrant and Guard are two HQ choices, a Farseer and Warlock unit are two HQ choices. Since Dawn of War only allows you do deploy one single HQ choice....

To explain this a bit, take a look at P48 (top right column). It says you can start an IC joined to a unit by deploying them in coherency with one another - but by that point, you would have had to of deployed two units to have them in coherency. So you deploy two units, then they join together. In dawn of war, you can only deploy one of them, so you can't ever take advantage of that rule.
Wow, that sucks.
 

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I guess it comes down to when you think 'never' is. I would guess that never means 'by normal means' So in this case I would say

Single Tyrant - No

Tyrant with Guard - Yes

If you are in a unit with a Tyrant and his guard and all the guard die then I'm not sure what happens. I would guess you say in a unit with the Tyrant but if you ever leave it you can never rejoin it.

Tyrant Guard are famous for not being able to Guard Tyrants during DoW, they're not very good guards.

Aramoro
 

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Tyrant Guard are a seperate unit. A Prime can NEVER join a Tyrant, because the tyrant is ALWAYS on his own even if you take Tyrant Guard, they are seperate units.

That being said, if you attach a Hive Tyrant to a unit of Tyrant Guard, then the Prime can attach as well. But if the unit is killed they will no longer be a single unit, reverting back to being a MC and an IC.
 

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I think the grey area is if the Prime, Tyrant and Tyrant guards are all one big happy unit. The guards are killed, now the Prime can never join the Tyrant but he already has so is he required to leave the unit or not?

I could see it going either way really.

Aramoro
 

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Carnifex used to be on their own, now they come in broods of 3. What is odd about that?

Hive Tyrants never have more than a single model in their unit. Tyrant Guard are a separate unit that the Hive Tyrant is allowed to join because of a special rule, they are not an upgrade to the Hive Tyrant unit.
 

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I think the grey area is if the Prime, Tyrant and Tyrant guards are all one big happy unit. The guards are killed, now the Prime can never join the Tyrant but he already has so is he required to leave the unit or not?

I could see it going either way really.

Aramoro
I'd say they will stay within 2" but cease to be joined. You can be within 2" and not be joined, though only if you can join them. They can't be joined by the rules, so the easiest thing is to just forget they were joined.
 
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