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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Strictly a Raven Guard successor chapter list now. I won't need to purchase as many models to get to this point and it will allow me to start a new army sooner.

Primary Detachment - Raven Guard Tactics

HQ
Shrike - 185

Chaplain - 105
Jump Pack

TROOPS
Tactical Squad - 200
5 additional SM, 1x Plasma Gun, 1x Combi-plasma, Rhino

Tactical Squad - 200
5 additional SM, 1x Plasma Gun, 1x Combi-plasma, Rhino

Scout Squad - 135
5 additional Scouts, 1x Power Sword

Scout Squad - 70
5x Camo Cloaks, 5x Sniper Rifles

ELITES
Vanguard Veteran Squad - 180
4x Power Weapon, 1x Power Fist

Dreadnought - 100

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad - 190
5 additional SM, 1x Flamer, 1x Power Sword

Assault Squad - 190
5 additional SM, 1x Flamer, 1x Power Sword

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad - 230
5 additional SM, 2x Missile Launchers w/flakk, 2x Lascannon

Stormraven Gunship - 225
Typhoon missile launcher

TOTAL - 2000

Thoughts, opinions, ideas, constructive criticism welcome. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I've ditch the allied detachment idea and I'm going with a single force now. I'm closer to this army with the models I already have so I'm happier with it already.
 

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The army is not bad at all.
Only real problem is: what you plan to do with 5 man strong assault squads and vanguard vets? They cost as hell and go down to bolters easy as cake.
I'd just drop the vanguards for another dreddy and 2 pods and join the two assault squads into a 10 man unit with 2 flamers and meltabombs + power sword champion.
Also, the tac squads could just get 2 plasmaguns for 5 points more...why the combi??
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The army is not bad at all.
Thanks. At this point, with this list I just need the Scout Snipers & Stormraven Gunship.

Only real problem is: what you plan to do with 5 man strong assault squads and vanguard vets? They cost as hell and go down to bolters easy as cake.
Each squad of ASM is 10 man strong. The VV are going in the Stormraven Gunship with the Chaplain and Dreadnought.

Also, the tac squads could just get 2 plasmaguns for 5 points more...why the combi??
How do you figure that? The Tactical Squad is only allowed 1 special weapon in a 10 man squad.
 

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Each squad of ASM is 10 man strong. The VV are going in the Stormraven Gunship with the Chaplain and Dreadnought.
ooh, sorry didn't noticed the extra 5 man thing :)

How do you figure that?
Sorry, i meant a plasma and a missile launcher. Now that i thing about it, combat squadding them with the plasma rushing and the missiles supporting your devs, could be very useful...

Still i'm not sold on the VV...lots of points for 5 models. Even a lucky overwatch can ruin your day. Honestly VV are the worst Elite of the codex :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Sorry, i meant a plasma and a missile launcher. Now that i thing about it, combat squadding them with the plasma rushing and the missiles supporting your devs, could be very useful...
My idea is to have the Rhinos take advantage of the RG Chapter Tactics and move across the board early and fast. Have the full 10-man squad in the Rhino allowing 2 SM to fire from the fire points (Plasma & Combi). Adding a Heavy Weapon doesn't seem like a good usage of the points as they won't be able to fire as much because of the movement.

Still i'm not sold on the VV...lots of points for 5 models. Even a lucky overwatch can ruin your day. Honestly VV are the worst Elite of the codex :(
I can see your point 100%. Running them as a 10-man squad with no upgrades is "better" but I already have the models setup that way (trying to stick to WYSIWYG). It's really just about adding a fluffy unit. A 6-man squad jumping out of the Stormraven with a Dreadnought as support is just a WOW! factor I guess.
 

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My idea is to have the Rhinos take advantage of the RG Chapter Tactics and move across the board early and fast. Have the full 10-man squad in the Rhino allowing 2 SM to fire from the fire points (Plasma & Combi). Adding a Heavy Weapon doesn't seem like a good usage of the points as they won't be able to fire as much because of the movement.

You are planning to use the bodyweight of the squads, then, i see. You should hovever consider carefully your local meta to sort out what will be more effective: 2 missile launcher shots a turn or 5 more bolter shots when they disembark. Also, i hope you are not going to assault with them. Aren't you, right? :shok:

I can see your point 100%. Running them as a 10-man squad with no upgrades is "better" but I already have the models setup that way (trying to stick to WYSIWYG). It's really just about adding a fluffy unit. A 6-man squad jumping out of the Stormraven with a Dreadnought as support is just a WOW! factor I guess.

Fluffy unit? I'm with you 100%. And yes, its wow factor, but for me it would be: "Wow, nice unit! Let's wreck it! :spiteful:
Like i said first post: solid list. the rest is trimming and personal taste :)
Just hope not to face a triple heldrake or a flying circus!! :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
No, the Tactical Squads are not there to assault, pretty much everybody else is meant to do that.

As for wrecking my Stormraven with the VV and Dreadnought that's fine. It can draw the enemy's fire, keep it off my scoring units.

It's funny how with every army list I've ever posted there is ALWAYS something wrong or missing. But that's just another person's opinion I guess.

When it comes to an army list I'm more worried about if I have my units equipped/upgrade in there right way. More often or not I get people suggesting to add 2-3 different squads, 4 new tanks, change to Drop Pods and so on...I feel like everybody is working for GW, trying to make me buy more!
 

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Still i'm not sold on the VV...lots of points for 5 models. Even a lucky overwatch can ruin your day. Honestly VV are the worst Elite of the codex :(
Worst Elite choice? Not sure about that as I think VV become much more viable with RG chapter tactics and with certain special characters (Chaplain and Shrike).
I think they only become really bad when people pump stupid amounts of points into them: I think x2 storm shields per squad maximum is the only thing you should ever consider giving them. But naked is even better: You are only paying +50 more points for a naked squad of 10 compared to a standard ASM squad of 10. You get +1A and +1LD for that, plus glorious intervention (which is now really meh, but still, you pay for it). Worth it? Well, it depends. In higher points games I would take them, in lower points games (1500pts) i'd take a ASM x10 instead and use the 50pts elsewhere. Attach Chaplain or Shrike (or both) for infiltrate and Zealot and that is a hell of a lot of damage output. Can they go toe to toe with Assault termies? Probably not, but not much can. They can make mincemeat of MEQ though and they should go after these types of scoring units. It's about sheer weight of attacks. And a stormraven is probably a good delivery mechanism...And yes, it's fluffy for RG to take a squad.

They cost as hell and go down to bolters easy as cake.
lol. Sorry I have to laugh, but it seems like I hear this criticism about every single unit in 40k: Termies, Thousand Sons, Sternguard...What doesn't die to massed bolter or lasgun fire in this game anymore (other than MCs or perhaps Nurgle lists)? I do see the point behind this, but still...
 

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It's funny how with every army list I've ever posted there is ALWAYS something wrong or missing. But that's just another person's opinion I guess.

When it comes to an army list I'm more worried about if I have my units equipped/upgrade in there right way. More often or not I get people suggesting to add 2-3 different squads, 4 new tanks, change to Drop Pods and so on...I feel like everybody is working for GW, trying to make me buy more!
lol don't worry about it or take it personally. Remember this is the internet.

Also, yes. People have there own preferences and play styles and have their own unique reasons for playing 40k, and this is reflected in people's opinions on lists and most people speak from a biased point of view whether they admit it or not. It's the nature of the beast.

There will always be something wrong with a list you post. You don't have to take everyone's advise (nor should you - it's your army. If you want to include something because you like it, then include it. A good player can make even supposedly bad units work with patience and experience...And I personally have far more respect for players who bring supposedly crappy units because they love them and/or like the fluff and have a themed list, as opposed to people who bring only units that the internet told them were good or the only ones worth taking (a stupid view IMO).
 

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When it comes to an army list I'm more worried about if I have my units equipped/upgrade in there right way.
Why does your scout sergeant have a power sword?

Your Devastator Squad. If (big paragraph for an IF) you're facing AV12 fliers I would drop the Flakk and take two more LCs or just leave them as normal MLs. The reason I say this is because I play an ADL with a QG in all of my armies against a pair of Heldrakes, and it pretty reliably returns one Glancing Hit. That's 4 twin linked shots for 50 points, with Interceptor. Compare that to the 50 points you spent on those two S7 shots that aren't twin linked (though you DO have the Signum) added to chancing two LC shots to 6's I would just let the SR do your talking in the skies. While on that topic, since I just suggested making your anti air slightly weaker (though I truly believe you'd be lucky to get anything with the FMLs against AV12) I would also drop the TML on the SR in favour of the TLMM. It's just so....nice for anti air. Personally I go TLLC top turret since that suits my games, but the other options are awesome too. Keep in mind the TLPC can't shoot enemy fliers down and the TLAC doesn't do so well against AV12.

Those two changes offer you 45 points to spend on goodies for your jump troops. I suggest one more flamer for each Assault squad. For the VVs, why not two SSs and a PS.

....I had a lot more to say, but god damn SM Command Squads can't take Jump Packs. Guess I'm just spoiled playing BA.

Hope this is something like the help you're looking for man.

EDIT: FUCK I just noticed that this is the way you have your models built up and you go for WYSIWYG. Ah well.
 

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Well, it's not that your lists LACK something. it's just personal preferences. Then, of course, speaking from a pure min-maxed perspective there are some actual things that just don't work, but as you said, you like those choices, so it's perfect like this.

About VV, what i meant was that they are 5 flying, overcosted marines that relies upon assaulting to pay back tehir cost. Guess why nobody takes Mutilator in chaos marines armies? Same reason, and mutilators are twice as good as VV (they don't fly, but they kick ass twice as hard) The thing "they die to bolter fire" means that small 3+ squads should not cost so much because a common bolter volley can kill 20% (1 model) of the unit a turn. I simply think that VV are overcosted Assault marines. That 1 attack more on the profile is just a scam. 10 assault marines put on the same number of attacks and if you kill 3-4 of them you still have a 70% effective squad. If you kill 3-4 VV, instead, you have...1-2 left marines...but of couse, if you like them, you should use them and use them at their best. Certainly sometimes they will came out of some unspeakable odd situation with a glorious victory. they are space marines, after all!
 

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Well, it's not that your lists LACK something. it's just personal preferences. Then, of course, speaking from a pure min-maxed perspective there are some actual things that just don't work, but as you said, you like those choices, so it's perfect like this.

About VV, what i meant was that they are 5 flying, overcosted marines that relies upon assaulting to pay back tehir cost. Guess why nobody takes Mutilator in chaos marines armies? Same reason, and mutilators are twice as good as VV (they don't fly, but they kick ass twice as hard) The thing "they die to bolter fire" means that small 3+ squads should not cost so much because a common bolter volley can kill 20% (1 model) of the unit a turn. I simply think that VV are overcosted Assault marines. That 1 attack more on the profile is just a scam. 10 assault marines put on the same number of attacks and if you kill 3-4 of them you still have a 70% effective squad. If you kill 3-4 VV, instead, you have...1-2 left marines...but of couse, if you like them, you should use them and use them at their best. Certainly sometimes they will came out of some unspeakable odd situation with a glorious victory. they are space marines, after all!
What? Why is the 1 extra attack a scam? Do you not get 2 attacks plus +1 = 3, as opposed to 1 attack base +1 = 2 for ASM?
I know what "they die to bolter fire" means. I was just saying that you could apply that to virtually anything in the game at the moment. I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying what doesn't die to small arms fire?

You are 100% right: "VV are overcosted marines." They are. You pay a premium for +1 Attack and +1LD. Not balanced, but this is 40k. I think +3 points extra per model would be fairer, but they are +5pts extra per model.

"10 assault marines put on the same number of attacks and if you kill 3-4 of them you still have a 70% effective squad. If you kill 3-4 VV, instead, you have...1-2 left marines.."

Yeah, if you are comparing x5 VV to x10 ASM: However, I was talking about x10 VV vs. x10 ASM. You seem to be comparing a x5 man VV squad to a x10 ASM squad in your example. I probably would not take a 5 man VV squad because yes, they have poor durability. However, with a storm raven a small squad becomes more likely to survive and get delivered into combat.

Either way, you can fairly easily screen them - especially if they were infiltrated with Shrike - with the rhino/razorback scout rush tactic and get them into combat with help from the RG chapter tactics.

Each to their own though. It's easy enough to just use a ASM squad counts-as a VV squad so you don;t have to buy any new models to do that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
...A good player can make even supposedly bad units work with patience and experience...And I personally have far more respect for players who bring supposedly crappy units because they love them and/or like the fluff and have a themed list, as opposed to people who bring only units that the internet told them were good or the only ones worth taking (a stupid view IMO).
Exactly! I play the army I like to play, not because it's perfect or has the approval of the internet.
@ntaw - The Scout Sgt. have a Power Axe to be exact but that was just a modelling choice. I could play all 10 Scouts as having CCWs. I'm not 100% strict on WYSIWYG.

The Devastator Squad I'm modelling/painting now. When it comes to fielding them I'd probably just proxy the heavy weapons to what they need to be. I just that squad being one that i change the weapons on after I play my army a few times. See where the weakness are and have them hopefully help fill the void. Anti-tank, anti-air and so on.

I try to fit 2x flamers in each ASM squad but sometimes the points don't allow it but I always make sure there's 1.

I have a Command Squad too. It just doesn't seem to fit into the army. I always have a Captain/Chapter Master and 5x Terminators (both from AOBR set) not in this army.

Now for all this VV vs. ASM talk. I see the benefit on a 10-man VV squad naked, a bit more point for more attacks, but not too many points where it's a waste. Pairing them with a Chaplain is the best use I can see for them, lots of re-rolling attacks. That's why there are 5 VV with the Chaplain in the Stormraven, 6 jump pack units being the max it can carry. The VV are already modeled with the PW and such but I can always just play them as naked if I need to shave points.

The way I plan on using the ASM squads is having one more down-field as an attacker and the other as a reactive attacker, play off what my opponent does. Granted this is all theoryhammer, once the dice start rolling who knows what will really happen.

I do appreciate all the comments and tips. Even if I don't quote or respond directly to them I do read them and give them some thought.
 

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I try to fit 2x flamers in each ASM squad but sometimes the points don't allow it but I always make sure there's 1.
Whatever those 10 points are spent on, 2 flamers are better than one. When it comes to Overwatch or shooting, those 5 points per squad will do a lot for that squad. I play my RAS with a further two Hand Flamers on the sergeants, but that unfortunately isn't an option for SMs.

I have a Command Squad too. It just doesn't seem to fit into the army.
Aye, they certainly don't unless they're coming out of an Assault Vehicle. I only brought it up because at first I thought that you could take Jump Packs for them, thus garnering a potentially less expensive version of VVs that simply doesn't have the silly new Heroic Intervention rule but maintains Ld9 as well as two attacks, and could also take an Apothecary for FnP. A shame this isn't the case with SM chapters.
 

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Yeah, I second that: You should always find those spare 5 points to give the ASM x2 flamers. It just increases their killing power exponentially, and D3 autohits in overwatch is nice.
Ah yes, I do confess I miss dual hand flamer sergeants (Gunslinger!) after selling my Blood Angels...I wonder if they will get to keep that with the new codex round in the corner.

Command Squads are fantastic when combined with drop pods: My x4 meltagun and an apothecary in a drop combo is practically auto include in my Salamanders list. 190pts is a bargain IMO, for an Alpha striking, tank popping guarantee unit, and when you attach an IC (like Vulkan) to the squad you get FNP for him via the apothecary (just keep the apothecary alive at the back!).
I also use a x4 plasma guns Command Squad and an apoth with Azrael in my Dark Angels list. Different role but still very affective. I think Command Squads are great because they are very killy, are alpha striking, are versatile, and the apothecary can boost durability to the squad and an IC of your choosing. All for a very reasonable price.
I would definitely highly recommend one in a pod if you wanted to expand your list in the future. They would compliment the Rhino Scout Rush tactic very nicely I think, and is very fluffy for Ravenguard (they use pods extensively to support their scout lightning strikes).
 

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I wonder if they will get to keep that with the new codex round in the corner
They will. Gotta keep that PMA brother :eek:k:

Command Squads are fantastic when combined with drop pods
What about jumping out of Stormravens?

On a side note, how many times has your CS survived to T3? I have a hell of a time with 10 man squads. Snake eyes are a bitch.
 

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With salamanders? Hardly ever. They just drop in, pop a land raider or vindicator with twin linked melta, then draw a lot of firepower away from my rhino rushers. Usually my apothecary survives at the back with vulkan, sometimes not, either way he acts as a bubble wrap that can deliver vulkan or a chapter master into combat by turn 2. If it takes 3 units of shooting to whittle the squad down to just vulkan then to me that is mission accomplished...
 

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Jumping out of a raven sounds fine. It's just I choose pods because my strategy is built around alpha striking melta. It really depends on what your list is and what you want command squads to do for you. They are incredibly flexible and underrated in my opinion so you can't really go wrong with them unless you tool them up for close combat (doesn't seem like a good idea).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Damn did I have a busy weeekend, had my first daughter's baptism...but anyway. Back to more pressing matters!

Well I'm making 2x flamers for each ASM squad fit. I'll adjust other points around that. I see now that those 5 points for each pays of easily.

As for that damn Command Squad they can't have jump packs. That's where the VV squad comes in I guess. Command is for range where the VV are for CC. Now if I was playing Blood Angels, that would be a different story. The way I see it it's either the Chaplain & 5 VV with jump packs or it's a Captian & Command Squad. An elite CC setup or a ranged setup. I'll have to play with my list and seem what other options I might have.

Call me odd, stupid, strange or whatever but I don't like Drop Pods, granted I've never used them in game-play and I know they are very good but I just don't like the model I guess. If I can't get into painting it and modelling it, I just can't see enjoying playing with them.
 
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