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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Brotherly debate: as the title suggests. Of course, this is implied in 2 ways (at least it was meant to be anyway) as in, my brother and I are debating which team has more "unfair" gear, brotherly also in the way that it's Chaos vs Space Marine (old brothers turned bitter - which seems to be the way our relationship is turning from this debate).

ANYWAY, he's just bought Strike Force Ultra, giving him the rules of his gunship can fly on from turn 1 or his terminators can deepstrike from turn 1 and what ever else the other rules are for that formation. He says that this will "even the playing field against Chaos", because he continuously gets his arse handed to him by Chaos (and Tau but that's another debate). He feels that my army being able to take Elites as troops (Plague Marines and Noise Marines in my army) is "unfair" and also being able to give my CSM squads +1 T/I (to 5) is "the most unfair thing ever".

My side of the debate is that I find it unfair that he is able to take:
  • A bike squad as troops if he so wishes
  • A squad of Assault Marines as troops " "
  • So many AP2 weapons (all grav weapons which he spams)
  • 3++ saves on majority of his Elite squads
  • 2+ and 3++ on his captains with AP2 range/CC weapons
  • Plasma Cannons
  • Scouts (in general with infiltrate and sniper rounds, camo cloaks etc)
  • Splitting of Tactical squads for actual tactical purposes
  • Tactical doctrines
  • TSKNF on ALL models
  • Hono(u)r Guards with power weapons and 2+/3++

plus several more, you get my drift. "Yeah but all that shit has never won me a game has it?!" is his argument, therefore it can't be unfair and must be shit. You may notice the "if he so wishes" and "for tactical purposes" statements that I used. He doesn't play his army smart, he thinks (3++ is hard to kill) and rushes them at a my squads and they get shot to bits (10+ 3+ saves is still hard to pass all of them, he's going to lose some guys!) He infiltrates his 5 man squads of scouts into the middle of the board in line of sight so they die first (first blood, done.) Deepstrikes dreadnaughts on their own (dead, sorted.) Then rushes his squads in 1 by 1.

Beside the point, I wanted some opinions on what other peoples thought are with Chaos and Space Marines differences, who has better squads/load outs, in other words "which team is more unfair". I am aware that both teams have squads that are far superior to other squads in each army, so don't bring that up :so_happy:
 

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Well lets see, ignoring some of the things you've already mentioned:

Chaos
-Helldrake, a flyer which is good at doing one or two roles (flaying heavy infantry with a baleflamer or vector striking enemy flyers)
-Marks of chaos, these allow you to buff up a variety of squads, like giving normal chaos marines higher initiative or making terminators or bikers even tougher
-Terminators, the ability to take smaller 'suicide' squads and coming stock with power weapons rather than powerfists
-Chosen, lots of options to make them fit whatever role you need to fill a gap in
-Havocs, plasmacannons might be nice, but autocannons let you pump out a decent number of shots good at taking on all but heavy armour
-Obliterators, the ability to fill a wide variety of support roles due to their number of gun options
-Cultists, the ability to spam large numbers of cheap troops
-HQ, generally very powerful in close combat

Loyalist
-Chapter masters, only slightly more expensive than a captain but with some better stats and access to an orbital bombardment
-Terminator squads, the options for the regular squads, and assault terminators having access to storm shields (yeah you can eventually kill off ++3 saves with grav weapons, but that doesn't mean it isn't going to take some effort)
-Ironclad dreadnought, more heavily armoured than the regular dred and looking to get in close
-Veterans, sternguard with access to special ammo and combi weapons and vanguard with all their close combat goodies
-Storm raven, decent transport thats not the easiest flyer to kill, and comes packing some good anti armour or anti infantry weapons
-Land raiders, different options for different roles
-Land speeders, fast and easily able to make a mess of squads or armour
-Chapter tactics, hello there army wide feel no pain and it will not die, or bolter drill, or scout, challenge buff and crusader squads, jink save bonus, or combat doctrines
-HQ, access to cheap characters that give access to more points elsewhere


And for both armies, lets not forget access to supplemental allies like the Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists (in addition to any other army you want to use as an ally.)

My lists have 8 vs 9 good things, but there are more for both armies. Loyalist marines might ultimately be slightly better, their codex is the younger of the two after all. However if your brother is hamstringing himself than continued losses have little to do with the army itself and more him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Helldrake, a flyer which is good at doing one or two roles (flaying heavy infantry with a baleflamer or vector striking enemy flyers)
Chosen, lots of options to make them fit whatever role you need to fill a gap in
Obliterators, the ability to fill a wide variety of support roles due to their number of gun options
Cultists, the ability to spam large numbers of cheap troops
All good points, never have I once stated that the Helldrake is not unfair, it is, I'm not going to beat around the bush, for 170 points, its OP.

As for the others. Chosen, Obliterators, Cultists. Chosen - their equal in the SM codex is the Sternguard Veteran. 1 word. Upgrades. Sternguard Vets get WAY more options. Stormshields being 1 of them. Best upgrade ever. Plus their special ammo. That daemon prince over there? Nevermind just hit him with poison 2+ rounds, or shoot him with grav guns or grav pistols.

Obliterators. Very good unit, I love them! But what Chaos get Space Marines must have it better. Centurion Devastators. Yeah, Oblits have the range advantage, but at 70 points per, 76 if you want T5 to match the T5 of Cents, then to match the output of Cents Heavy Grav Guns (salvo 3/5) but luckily they are relentless and slow n purposeful so that little 3 there means a whole lot of fuck all, so 3 Cent Devs will bust out a whopping 15 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on whatever your armour save is (usually 3s) and then you get 0 armour save. Or shooting at tanks, just 15 dice to get as many 6s as you can. An oblits chance of taking out armour, 3 Las shots on a 3+ to hit, then 5+ to glace, with 3 dice.

Not just with oblits either, same case with Mutilators and Centurions (non devastator kind). Same shit different day.

Cultists, only good for zombies I find, or being objective holders. But low and behold, SM get it better, AGAIN, with scouts. Apart from being vastly more expensive, at least they can infiltrate, gain +1 covers save, use sniper rifles to get AP2, S4 T4, heavy bolters (with 2+ poison). Again, SM get it better.

But of course this is meted out in our debate with
Marks of chaos, these allow you to buff up a variety of squads, like giving normal chaos marines higher initiative or making terminators or bikers even tougher
yep, but all that T5 or I5 means jack all when you run and can't rally. Because CSM and regular SM cost the same in points base. But Space Marines have more special rules. But they cost the same. :good: nice to see GW thinking long and hard on army balance.

(I just want it known I am not starting a fight or belittling anyone or any of that kind, I am trying to come to an end of this debate and wanted others opinions. Also, I am rather pissed because I've been called a cunt and a wanker and a fuck wit today because of an army I took against my brother and mopped the floor with him. Because he makes "fluff" armies.
 

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If you want to end the debate switch armies for a few games and stomp him with his own shit.
 

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If you want to end the debate switch armies for a few games and stomp him with his own shit.
Strongly second that. He is bitching around unit upgrades...the only 2 really better units in the CSM codex are heldrake and nurgle DP. His troops are ten times better, his heavy support are better and cheaper, his elite are awesome (hell, i wish i can have hammernators) his HQ can have access to Eternal Warrior without supplement... tell him to play tau if he wants an autowin army.
Otherwise you could just build less "strong" lists and give him an easier match (not an auto-win, just less competitive.) you could use mutilators, raptors and defilers for a non competitive list...
In the end, his is not an argument nor a debate. he is bitching because he can't use to full power his own codex. This means that he needs to play and play and experiment untill he get all sorted out. Otherwise...he could make his marines traitors...and turn to CHAOOOOSSSSSS!!! :crazy::crazy:
YESSHHH!!! CHAOSSHHH!!!
 

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Switching armies would be hilarious. Grav Centurions in a Land Raider, they're pretty nutty.

I had to laugh at the "I make fluffy armies" excuse, as I've heard that one used to justify being cheesy rather than sucking. To be fair, he has sucky fluff armies too.
 

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All good points, never have I once stated that the Helldrake is not unfair, it is, I'm not going to beat around the bush, for 170 points, its OP.
Possibly not so much since some of the revisions as of seventh edition coming out; hasn't the helldrakes weapon been made hull mounted or something?

Chosen - their equal in the SM codex is the Sternguard Veteran. 1 word. Upgrades. Sternguard Vets get WAY more options.
You might want to do a comparison between those entries again. Chosen have more options than sternguard and vanguard veterans combined. Also don't forget that chosen can be kitted out with up to five special weapons, like flamers or meltaguns.

Stormshields being 1 of them. Best upgrade ever.
Sternguard veterans do not have storm shields as an option, are you sure your not reading the vanguard entry?

Plus their special ammo.
Yes, I did mention that in my list of good things for loyalists.

Obliterators. Very good unit, I love them! But what Chaos get Space Marines must have it better. Centurion Devastators.
More expensive, potentially shorter range, and suffering from the same issue as terminators (either to slow or need a transport which means less time on the field and less time shooting.) If your not deep striking obliterators in, then they are generally shooting from turn one onward, and with their variety of weapons they are more than capable of taking on light infantry hordes, heavy infantry groups, monsters, and all forms of armour.

Grav centurions can deal with monsters and heavy infantry, but pit them against a tide of low saves and they start to struggle.

Not just with oblits either, same case with Mutilators and Centurions (non devastator kind). Same shit different day.
Again, more expensive and not as flexible; your generally building centurions for one role while oblits and mutilators can change to suit another one without major cost to the controlling player.

Cultists, only good for zombies I find, or being objective holders. But low and behold, SM get it better, AGAIN, with scouts.
Stick an apostle in a blob of cultists and drive it into something; your enemy isn't getting out until something is wiped out.

Apart from being vastly more expensive, at least they can infiltrate, gain +1 covers save, use sniper rifles to get AP2, S4 T4, heavy bolters (with 2+ poison). Again, SM get it better.
Lower numbers (mind you I like using scouts myself) and lower stats than regular marines; so fewer shots hit, meaning fewer kills. Also sniper rifles are not AP2, so unless your meaning the rule for sniper weapons that makes the shot AP2 thats not something you should be thinking your getting every round.


Again though, the higher number of cultists, combined with their low cost, means that losing a large number of them is meaningless because thats less fire on the rest of your army. Scouts, on the other hand, are fewer for those same points.

How much effort do you have to expend to kill thirty five cultists as opposed to eight scouts armed with sniper rifles, camo cloaks, and a hellfire heavy bolter (130 vs 124)?

yep, but all that T5 or I5 means jack all when you run and can't rally. Because CSM and regular SM cost the same in points base.
Chaos marines are cheaper than normal marines. If given veterans of the long war, boosting their leadership by a point, then the two cost the same.

Now when it comes to running and rallying, remember that your basic chaos marine squad is leadership 9 (thanks to the aspiring champion which is built into the starting cost of the squad.) On average you will pass 5/6 leadership tests, as opposed to regular marines whose leadership 8 (unless a veteran sergeant is taken) will only see them pass 13/18 leadership tests. With veterans of the long war, making the two cost the same, chaos marines will pass 11/12 leadership tests.

So better leadership at the start, and then boosts to things like toughness or initiative making them even tougher.

But Space Marines have more special rules. But they cost the same.
They generally do. No they do not.

Loyalist tactical marines cost more than regular chaos marines, loyalist veterans cost more than chosen, loyalist terminators cost more than chaos terminators, loyalist bikers cost more than chaos ones, devestators cost more than havocs, and scouts cost more than cultists.

Chaos has access to some high price items, but this is generally meted out with a slightly lower starting cost.
 

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He feels that my army being able to take Elites as troops (Plague Marines and Noise Marines in my army) is "unfair" and also being able to give my CSM squads +1 T/I (to 5) is "the most unfair thing ever".
Building options are different than the combination of such on the table top.

My side of the debate is that I find it unfair that he is able to take:
  • A bike squad as troops if he so wishes
  • A squad of Assault Marines as troops " "
  • So many AP2 weapons (all grav weapons which he spams)
  • 3++ saves on majority of his Elite squads
  • 2+ and 3++ on his captains with AP2 range/CC weapons
  • Plasma Cannons
  • Scouts (in general with infiltrate and sniper rounds, camo cloaks etc)
  • Splitting of Tactical squads for actual tactical purposes
  • Tactical doctrines
  • TSKNF on ALL models
  • Hono(u)r Guards with power weapons and 2+/3++
Bike squad troops is only unfair if he makes use of it. Assault Marines likewise. Grav Weapons are different from 30K, but they only time I hear complaints of those is when they're on bikes; aren't they quite short ranged?

3++ on "majority" - define majority. On Terminators, sure. But they're elite only, do not score, and have no ranged capacity, and cost around 200pts to sit on objective when all it takes is bad rolling to shift them.

Plasma Cannons - you're playing MEQ's, of course plasma will make you suck your own balls. That's why Invulnerable saves via Daemon allies and Terminators exist. Or cover saves in the case of bikes. Or just be plain tough, like Spawn.

Tac Doctines - you mean the SM version of CSM god dedication? Right.

ATSKNF - you mean the core of the SM army, and has been for years? When you have access to fearless on so many options? It's not even as if Fearless is bad (Back in my day, Fearless used to be a nerf)

Honour Guard have finally become useable in this edition. But they're still only combat units. But where is the 3++ coming from, do they have Storm Shield access now?

Rebuttals to that come from;

Chaos Space Marines is about the worst codex out there. Even Dark Angels has something that's kind of interesting to bring now that 7th edition has dropped.

Space Marines still is a pretty poor army all told compared to IG, Crons and Nids, and those are middle tier armies, I've not even gotten on to Eldar or Tau yet.

In other news, get the Space Marine Legion Crusade Army List from Forgeworld. You can play as pretty much whatever build you fancy - you can even use the Word Bearers current Legion unique Rite of War to allow Daemons to play with you.



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Honour Guard have finally become useable in this edition. But they're still only combat units. But where is the 3++ coming from, do they have Storm Shield access now?
No they don't, command squads can take them but not honour guard squads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Some very good points brought up here. I'm glad to see people pitching in with their own thoughts. I'm sorry If I've confused some unit around. I did mean the Vanguard not Sternguard (all these damn guard I get confused!), also the confusion with the Honour Guard/Command Squad. I completely agree with the comparisons between the Oblits etc, as I stated though, Chaos had something that a Space Marine army didn't have, which was awesome, because in my eyes that was "the chaos warpsmiths have invented shit that the space marines haven't!" or even "loyalists can't match this stuff because of x, y and z", aaaaaand then their codex came out with their own versions of the chaos stuff (not saying ALL of it, as SM don't have a defiler or maulerfiend/forgefiend) but they did get Hunters :mad:.

As for the point costs, I was 100% positive that the Tactical vs CSM costs were the same :shok:. Ah well. Still some very good points being brought out!

If you want to end the debate switch armies for a few games and stomp him with his own shit.
That would be a hilarious way to end the argument!
Strongly second that.
Switching armies would be hilarious.
I did think of this, I may put it forward to him now with all this extra support! Show him how a Space Marine army SHOULD be used. We did do a similar type of battle a few months ago where he made MY chaos army, and I made HIS space marine army. We went about it with the rules of "we can proxy similar models and paint schemes don't need to match the army". Basically his Ultramarines became Salamanders and his stock captain became Vulkan He'Stan and my Death Guard became 1k Sons. It was a draw funnily enough, draw in the sense that Vulkan was running around wrecking my shit while my Rubric marines ran away for 3 turns until it was drawn.
 

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I don't think he meant routing, but like walking back wards and shooting, keeping Hestan at arms length
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I don't think he meant routing, but like walking back wards and shooting, keeping Hestan at arms length
yeah like, move 6" and then run d6" in the opposite direct to Hestan. They were quite full of fear. Then again, I did GIVE HIM Hestan.....
 

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if i recall correctly TS cannot run...
 

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