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Who wins in a 1 vs 1 battle? The Empire or Bretonnia?

  • Bretonnia

    Votes: 26 28.3%
  • The Empire

    Votes: 66 71.7%
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Well, the Empire should place a bunch of guns in their keeps and fortresses on Gisoreux Gap if they're attacking. Then they can fall back to the forts if they're being beaten, and when the Brets pursue them *boom*. And the same if Brets are attacking, except the Empire's at full strength if they get through Gisoreux.
Also, the ST would hold up a lot better than that Kulzanar. Especially with all the greatest heroes of the Empire amongst them. They're better trained than Bretonnian peasants, even if they aren't more numerous. I'm not buying this "the Brets would win because the Lady wants them to" crap, Sigmar and Ulric would be watching this war too since it's their entire nation at war. There's a ton of Knightly Orders in the Empire, and they're all united. None of those feuds and rivalries that the Bretonnians all have for the most part. Maybe to a minor extent between Templar Grand Masters, but not as much as the Brets. This could overcome any outnumbering the Brets have. The capitals of Knightly Orders are KO. Is this a hint about their awesomeness?
And Steam Tanks are a lot more resilient than that. They'd be destroyed only through really flukey shots that get through the vision slits in the sides and kill the Engineer Commanders. And on this scale they'd probably have apprentices with them to take control in case of that, if they're smart.
 

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Yes the state troops are very well trained but still, when considering they're attacked by a mass of charging knights, they won't hold them off untill they broke the momentum and then as I said, if you read back, the spearmen and halberdiers will kill a lot of knights mostly because of their weapon range and grouping agains the knight. When they get dismounted their surviving chances go down rapidly unless they can remain upright and take some with them. And those that are upright are fluffwise considered to be able to handle a quite a handfull of statetroops, and then you may not forget that the brets will have carved a hole in the ranks of the statetroops which is then filled by peasants storming in from behind the knights, ofcourse the statetroops will show their best and they are fluffwise the finest infrantry of man and they will show the brets what is meant by that. But I do not see them winning that on their own just through discipline. I notice many people are quite one-sided on their choice, not even giving the other a slim chance of victory. Please do not forget that fluff in the armybooks is always praising about the army in the book. You need to put one and one together and use some basic forms of strategics and logics (yes, quite possible in a fantasy universe, we're not trying to explain how hippogryphs are born but the result of a combat situation between normal men)

I also don't believe the "protected by the lady" stuff, since you pointed it out, Ulric and Sigmar are watching too. That's why I see Sigmar and Ulric priests giving the brets some hell. Maybe even going toe to toe with the grail knights which would end in an immense battle not only between two mighty warriors but also between two religions. And furhter more, I think the blessing of the lady is produced through the damsels who will ride in the center of the knights and protect them with magic as good as possible and will try to nulify incoming projectiles and offensive spells to their best attempts, not that it all will succeed.

About the steam tanks, I consider them not destroyed but damaged or disabled. I see wizards with the lore of life using the nature against it to block the wheels, or their systems. And even rocks thrown from the trebuchets buckling the armour and denting it. They won't get destroyed, but I wouldn't shoot with a dented cannon for example so that just leaves ramming, while on wooden wheels.

The knights of Bretonnia might have their feuds but will unite when the whole country is called to war. When in name of Gilles de Breton then they'll move mountains to do what must be done. And the knightly orders aren't that numerous, they're a select group that's hard to join. No matter how you spin it, bretonnia has more knights, especially since every damn nobleman couldn't keep his hands home and has an offspring of 7 or 8 kids. Throwing the knightly orders headlong against the Brets would indeed be painfull for the brets but also be the end of the knightly orders, untill they start recruiting again. Since the orders are there for a reason I also sincerely doubt their full might will be present at a battle against Bretonnia. The raven knights for example have better things to do then killing Brets, there's some vampires that need to be kept in check. I think the knights of Ulric will be most present but still quite a number of them will be up and about the empire, killing other foul creatures that still stalk the lands, same goes for the knights panthers. Knights of the blazing sun and the reiksguard will be present with a lot of their members. In contrast to any political feuds of which I said shouldn't be an issue these knights actually have a task outside of their own interests. Many will easily see that it's no use in fighting brets to then return home and notice some villages have been raided by trolls, orcs or beastmen. Mostly the followers of Ulric and Sigmar will have been driven into a religious zeal to crush the blasphemers and so on.
 

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Empire all the way. but a fact to consider is time. the empire is only 50 years away from a 18 centry technolgy base. when they go all musket the brets are doomed.

plate main cant stop bullets and judgeing by there inventness they need to worry about things like Gatling guns (hand cracked machine guns) and Puckle guns (gaint 37mm 11 shot revolvers) in the face of this kind of techonlgy the bretons are doomed, the only question is what will the provence be called.
 

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I would say empire for a few reasons. First, somebody said earlier that the Lady would actively take part, where Sigmar would not. Im not sure if you actually read the fluff, cause he certainly does. In previous editions the whole reason to take Karl Franz was the fact that for one turn Sigmar would come and posses him, turning him into the most retarded character in the game for a turn with a 10 for all stats. It was even backed up by the fluff in both the rulebook and the Empire book at the time. So clearly, that argument is moot.

Second, I dont quite understand how a castle would really stop the empire from invading Brettonia if they set their minds to it. Cannons folks. Im pretty certain they could take out the walls in short order, and with the sheer amount of artillery that the empire has at its disposal, they could shell the defenders without even having to get close. It wouldn't be nearly as bad as if the Brettonians had to try and lay siege to en empire fortification.

Third, I think that people dont quite understand the worth of state troops. In game terms sheer numbers would eventually wear down the knights. In a historical light, well trained foot almost always defeated horsemen. The romans built their empire on it. The Swiss mercenaries of the renaissance built a reputation for it. In Machiavelli's discourses on Livius he goes over the same argument. While a horse is a great shock factor, its not going to do much when confronted by a couple of spears braced on the ground.

Fourth, given time to prepare the battleground an empire army would be able to create ditches or palisades of stakes that would be incredibly helpful against the knights. If the Brettonians were given that same time it would do little in their favor. They could dig ditches for their peasants, but for them to be effective they would have to leave them and begin the long walk through the artillery of the empire anyways. The knights benefit from a wide open battlefield, but if the empire can stall them with something like flagellants or a a large unit of state troops, their flank is exposed and they have little offensive capability in prolonged combat.
 

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I totally agree with Theripontigonius, the Empire war machine is built for large combats against large armies, they have such a mixed bag of units that you can pick anything in the Bret army and have a defence against it. We have wandered into the realm of using history to explain fantasy but if ever there was an example of Knights getting boned, just look at Agincourt, loads of absolutely insanely bad ass knights in the best and latest war gear in the medieval world at that time, bogged down and killed by lightly armoured mental English Longbowmen wielding hammers.

To sum up Brets are just too one sided to win against the Empire. Coupled with the fact that state troops are vastly superior to the inbred peasants, and when all the knights are dead (which will happen as they are nobility so there aren't that many of them), the Empire will win.
 

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There are litereally thousands upon thousands of Bretionian Knights and Errants. Agincourt was a tactical disaster by the french, Foot knights in a marsh going uphill. In addition Trebuchets are the last word in anti-castle weaponry. The Empire don't seem to have siege cannons.

You're theroycrafting too much using the abilities of the units in games. Reading though the fluff will show you it will be a lot closer than you give Brets credit for. I don't think we can make the assumptions that Empire will be tactical geniuses whilst the brets will simply ride towards the in single file getting gunned down. I believe that is pressed in an all out war the Bretoinians would win.
 

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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm never going to agree that a non-blackpowder war machine could ever stand up to an artillery barrage.
 

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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm never going to agree that a non-blackpowder war machine could ever stand up to an artillery barrage.
I think again you are over estimating an 'Artillery Barrage', Trebuchets were designed for knocking down castles not for use against infantry. Mortars and Cannons the size we see the empire use are for anti-infantry/cav and light fortifications. There's no useful comparison Trebuchet Vs Cannon as they're for different purposes.
 

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I think again you are over estimating an 'Artillery Barrage', Trebuchets were designed for knocking down castles not for use against infantry. Mortars and Cannons the size we see the empire use are for anti-infantry/cav and light fortifications. There's no useful comparison Trebuchet Vs Cannon as they're for different purposes.
When I say "War Machine" I don't mean in the GW literal sense of a war machine, I mean in the historical sense of "a way of making war". You've just agreed with me entirely, Brets have Trebuchets which are about as accurate as pissing in the wind and the Empire have artillery specifically designed to kill the type of units that the Brets field. So in order to get close enough to kill that artillery the Brets are going to have to weather the storm.
 

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I'd like to say Bretonnia in the game especially but fluff wise too much guns from the Empire.

The name says alot an EMPIRE vs Bretonnia being more of a region
 

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When I say "War Machine" I don't mean in the GW literal sense of a war machine, I mean in the historical sense of "a way of making war". You've just agreed with me entirely, Brets have Trebuchets which are about as accurate as pissing in the wind and the Empire have artillery specifically designed to kill the type of units that the Brets field. So in order to get close enough to kill that artillery the Brets are going to have to weather the storm.
Trebuchets where actually incredibly accurate war machines, just took a while to fire so more useful against static structures. The Brets would weather the storm, but seeings how they can just will cannonballs not to hit them that's pretty sweet. They also have loads of flying horses just for this task.

The resolution of this is nothing to do with forces in the field. According to the fluff, man for man the Brets are the better Army. It's weather or not Karl Franz can rally all the Elector Counts to his banner quickly enough. The Empire is bigger and can throw more bodies at the problem, using superior numbers combined with technology to win. The problem is the Elector Counts are notoriously fickle in the fiction. It's the lack of Unity of the Empire which is their undoing in the fiction.
 

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I'm giving it to the Empire.

Bretonnia's knights are much better than their Imperial counter parts, but the rest of their army is badly lacking. Their infantry are pure shit, badly armed, badly trained and are only led by whatever knight happens to have a lame horse on the day of the battle. In terms of fire rate and power their siege engines are inferior to the Empire and would be much harder to aim in a battle. Given the reaction the Bretonnians had to the Chaos hell cannons in Knight of the Realm they really have no idea of what gun powder weapons do to castles

When it comes to a long war, Bretonnia is at a major disadvantage. The number of Knights is very limited and their fighting style of charging infantry, and this time it will be well drilled, pole arm and gun wielding infantry means they'll take major casualties. There are fewer Bretonnian peasants to begin with in comparison to the Empire, not counting the fact that roughly half of the Bretonnian peasant population is too retarded/deformed/ to even use weapons as a result of inbreeding.

If the Empire can bludgeon its way through the passes that act as choke points then there's no reason they can't utterly flatten
 

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I'm giving it to the Empire.

Bretonnia's knights are much better than their Imperial counter parts, but the rest of their army is badly lacking. Their infantry are pure shit, badly armed, badly trained and are only led by whatever knight happens to have a lame horse on the day of the battle. In terms of fire rate and power their siege engines are inferior to the Empire and would be much harder to aim in a battle. Given the reaction the Bretonnians had to the Chaos hell cannons in Knight of the Realm they really have no idea of what gun powder weapons do to castles

When it comes to a long war, Bretonnia is at a major disadvantage. The number of Knights is very limited and their fighting style of charging infantry, and this time it will be well drilled, pole arm and gun wielding infantry means they'll take major casualties. There are fewer Bretonnian peasants to begin with in comparison to the Empire, not counting the fact that roughly half of the Bretonnian peasant population is too retarded/deformed/ to even use weapons as a result of inbreeding.

If the Empire can bludgeon its way through the passes that act as choke points then there's no reason they can't utterly flatten
:goodpost: I've got to side with the Empire on this one, though I do love my Bretts.
 

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In a straight one on one confrontation I gotta go with The Empire. They have the artillery that Bretonnia lack, they can call upon more resources and they have Karl Franz, perhaps the greatest leader of men the Old World has ever seen. They would probably overwhelm Bretonnia eventually (although the victory may be pyrrhic). It would be one hell of a fight though. Then afterwards my minions of the Dark Gods can come in, rip what's left of the both of you to pieces and use the remains of your people in disrespectful marionette shows.
 
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