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Craw-Daddy
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I'm kind of surprised they didn't stick with writing Legion stories. I thought that was the most successful thing for the series. Would have thought they would have really built a stronger following before trying to milk the series.

I feel that Angel Exterminatus and Fear to Tread were kind of forced as legion stories to get the ball rolling.

I feel that the second compilation of short stories, Age of Darkness, was the turning point for the Heresy where they focused on writing lots of individual and quite frankly strange stories. They came in forms of limited novels, compilations, and frankly stories that never should have been written. While fans are left wondering why the majority of the legions chose the paths they took.
 

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Discussion Starter #142
Recent announcements prove my initial point: I remain out...
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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What announcements? Sorry I don't keep up with BL news much anymore so apologies if this is all common knowledge to everyone else
Nope, I don't know what the "recent announcements" are. :scratchhead:
 

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I feel like Battle of the Abyss was the first of many novels that were simply used to take up space. Theres just so many ridiculous filler novels that you have to wonder, with all the success and attention they had creating certain novels, they just decided to go the other way.
I disagree that any novel is a filler. This is the authors chance to truly flesh out the heresy. I have never understood the mindset of rushing a story we know the ending to. Nothing wrong in my opinion with fleshing out all the legions.
 

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Discussion Starter #147 (Edited)
I'm not going to argue the case again, though I will summarise below, but I feel my point is well made by me and many others in this thread. I still receive the Black Library e-newsletters, and from these:

- Friday 17th April: Corax: Soulforge – Hardback, eBook, MP3. No paperback, no mass market paperback.
- Friday 10th April: Garro: Knight Errant box set, including a new MP3. I have all of these already, the MP3 cannot be added to my collection unless I buy the new collection.
- Monday 30th March: The Imperial Truth, published on eBook. Again, I don’t have this for my book collection
- Friday 27th March: Raptor, MP3

Now, my comments are noted on each, where I think it's worthwhile. But these are all from the past three weeks or so.

So, to recap on the problems:

- Volume: the number of publications has become too great to keep up with
- Format: there are now a ridiculous number of formats and limited edition, limited access, or format-specific releases
- Complexity: the number and variety of formats makes it difficult to stay in touch with the many storylines, plots and characters
- Story Progression: the story is not progressing, we are book 30(+?) and are nowhere near the conclusion. We now have the excellent "Talon of Horus" coming after and filling in some gaps. What would have been better was to have a shorter main story and then branches coming later - we all know the outcome, so get on with it!
- Money: it's hard to see past the argument that the HH is a cash cow

People who want to continue, can, this isn't about forcing or coercing others: this thread, well argued and reasoned by myself and others, is about why I - and other former HH readers - have called it a day.

CtS
 

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I'm not going to argue the case again, though I will summarise below, but I feel my point is well made by me and many others in this thread. I still receive the Black Library e-newsletters, and from these:

- Friday 17th April: Corax: Soulforge – Hardback, eBook, MP3. No paperback, no mass market paperback.
- Friday 10th April: Garro: Knight Errant box set, including a new MP3. I have all of these already, the MP3 cannot be added to my collection unless I buy the new collection.
- Monday 30th March: The Imperial Truth, published on eBook. Again, I don’t have this for my book collection
- Friday 27th March: Raptor, MP3

Now, my comments are noted on each, where I think it's worthwhile. But these are all from the past three weeks or so.

So, to recap on the problems:

- Volume: the number of publications has become too great to keep up with
- Format: there are now a ridiculous number of formats and limited edition, limited access, or format-specific releases
- Complexity: the number and variety of formats makes it difficult to stay in touch with the many storylines, plots and characters
- Story Progression: the story is not progressing, we are book 30(+?) and are nowhere near the conclusion. We now have the excellent "Talon of Horus" coming after and filling in some gaps. What would have been better was to have a shorter main story and then branches coming later - we all know the outcome, so get on with it!
- Money: it's hard to see past the argument that the HH is a cash cow

People who want to continue, can, this isn't about forcing or coercing others: this thread, well argued and reasoned by myself and others, is about why I - and other former HH readers - have called it a day.

CtS
"We all know the outcome so get on with it!"

Throne....sometimes the journey is better then the destination
 

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Discussion Starter #149
That's your response?

Earlier posts noted how a core storyline could be developed in a relatively short series, with spin offs and side stories coming later.

The HH model is a mirror-image of this. In Y1 we had three releases, in this last month ALONE there have been four, across a range of formats - some re-releases, others new, some both together!

As I said, I'm not going back over it, as readers can dip in and out of this thread freely without the same thing being said over and over again.

Throne... :wink:

CtS
 

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That's your response?

Earlier posts noted how a core storyline could be developed in a relatively short series, with spin offs and side stories coming later.

The HH model is a mirror-image of this. In Y1 we had three releases, in this last month ALONE there have been four, across a range of formats - some re-releases, others new, some both together!

As I said, I'm not going back over it, as readers can dip in and out of this thread freely without the same thing being said over and over again.

Throne... :wink:

CtS
Spin offs? THis is the chance to flesh out the heresy once and for all. Sure the shorts and anthologies released are annoying, but they are not nessesary to getting the full experience. Right now we are getting to events that have never been covered before, and the amount of new lore coming off is great.

According to you we should have - Horus rising, Battle of istvaan, Seige of terra. Or is that still to long of a series for you?
 

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The Emperor Protects
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According to you we should have - Horus rising, Battle of istvaan, Seige of terra. Or is that still to long of a series for you?
Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy.

Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.

That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.

We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to Legion. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron.

We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out.

Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.

It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know.

To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.
 

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Discussion Starter #152 (Edited)
You seem to enjoy creating argument, at the expense of fact.

My point is well made already, summarised above numerous times. You can agree or argue with yourself because I will - after this - no longer reply to your infantile posts.

To be clear: I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the series, I am questioning the merits and motivations of the current series as it stands. Many others are too.

You listed a possible series of three stages: that's something you've created and not something I recognise or agree with.

To reinforce the point about diminishing interest and support for the series, the last Ltd Ed book is still available more than a month after release: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/tallarn-ironclad-limited-edition.html

And - to finish - there have been numerous releases in the series in the past month alone. This is disappointing as the main story should be developed and completed before side stories are padded. That way, readers can feel secure in knowing they are not missing key information by not buying everything. The key example, and determining factor for me, was the story of Mortarion which didn't make sense in The Vengeful Spirit if readers had not already read an eBook (which set key information in place and wasn't published until after The Vengeful Spirit).

I remain out, with disappointment.

CtS
 

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Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy.

Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.

That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.

We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to Legion. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron.

We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out.

Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.

It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know.

To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.
Like i said im not a fan of the shorts and novellas either, but i dont think they are nessesary at all. As far as the novels are concerned, sure, the past year has been a bummer, with nothing really exciting coming out. Do i think some novels are not needed? Sure. But the authors and the BL team feel they are important, so i will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I personally dont read the shorts and i have only one novella. They just dont seem nessesary., and i have never been confused reading a novel yet.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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LOL. I just came back to think about that. The Battle of the Phall is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR
 

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LOL. I just came back to think about that. The Battle of the Phall is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR
Meh, no one needs the battle of the phall.....As long as we got a Calth novel!
 

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No need for that book to be £25 :/ there's longer books for £20!
£25 for a "normal length" HB and £30 for a longer (vengeful spirit, thousand sons) HB from now on then?
 

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Hey all,
I've been away from the forums for a while and that's largely been because I've also moved away from the HH series. A lot of the points that have been raised in this thread I (and others) have commented on before and it's no real surprise that it's hit so hard, it really has gotten out of hand.

The main reason I've turned away isn't the quality (or lack of) of what has been turned out so much as how much is being turned out. It's extremely hard to keep up, not to mention phenomenally expensive to keep up, with how much is being released and in so many different formats, especially when not everything is released in all formats.

What makes this even harder is how all of this is presented to us on the BL website, and the failure of how it's presented in GW stores (which I avoid like the plague anyway).

Trying to actually see what is available, and get your head around the context of each item and where it fits in to the larger overall HH story arc is almost a full time job. It isn't fun and I suspect only hardcore fans would willingly attempt it. Your casual fans, well, how many sales losses is that ?


The story arc is what is most important to me and I struggle to know where we are at with it. Forget the quality issue, I'm looking for a series that moves from A to B to C and is consistent. I don't care if the series runs from A to Z and then from AA to ZZ. I do not want a series that jumps from A to H to D to Z to F and so on.

Black Library have failed completely and utterly to manage the story arc. I do not believe they have a clear idea of where they are going, I do not believe they have proper control over their authors in regarding what they produce and how consistent it is with what has been written before.

Having a story arc that has a main story and several different sub stories to it needs to be managed. Other publishers have done it and done it well. My favourite example of this being TSR and the Dragonlance series which has a couple of hundred novels to it's credit. These were released as different series of books and whilst several books may come out in rapid succession on different sub stories, you always knew where you were because of they way they were released. For example,

The main story arc was a trilogy and was known as the chronicles. Sub story books would be released with their own headings, the Elven Nations Trilogy, the Heroes series, the Dragons Anthology and so on. Over all there are currently more than 40 different sub series and these series help manage the overall product. You never became lost as to what was going on and you knew very clearly from the sub series titles where they fitted in.

BL could easily have done this with the HH series, even with all the different formats they want to use. In some cases they have done this. The Nathaniel Garro series for example is easily identifiable from the rest of the series. They could easily have broken this up in to trilogies and sextets and released them with a proper structure in place.

I still have a real hunger for the HH story, but the way BL has managed releases makes me feel like i'm in a food fight not a restaurant.

That, coupled with the horrific, wait let me say that again, HORRIFIC, prices they are charging now for books, and for me, audiobooks (which is what I tend to buy), means it just to much of a negative experience for me to try and purchase their products. It's unsurprising that I tend not to be involved in the model side of the game either any more for exactly the same reasons, the purchasing experience is so negative. I hate, wait let me say that again, HATE, going in to a GW store because you get jumped on by staff, going hammer and tongs, trying to get you to by anything and everything they can. If I dare venture in to one, I almost always leave with a strong desire to beat someone to death.

Anyway, that's my rant done.
 

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I think BL's strategy of alienation can be stripped down to two decisions on their end: raised prices, and lack of communication.

Raised prices - BL stuff is (in the most extreme cases) first released in a form from $75 novels, through $40 novellas, to $2 quick reads that are only 1000 words long. That means that, for one cent, you get between 5 and 15 words. By comparison, a typical fantasy doorstopper hardback is around 300K words for $30, that is, about 100 words for each cent. And sure, after a year BL prints paperbacks, but so does everyone else.

Lack of communication - Even something as simple as the utterly terrible website. Not announcing future releases. And, also, the disorganization of the endless ranges that leads to stuff being released in various forms, in complicated fashion, in bite-sized chunks, without clear information on stuff like what % of an anthology is reprint material.

These combine to shrink the fanbase, destroy hype, etc.. Maybe BL is still making tons of money, but I'm pretty sure it's making it off of significantly fewer people, and those people are significantly less satisfied with the product (as evidenced by most discussion on forums like this).

Exhibit One: the Warhammer Fantasy End Times. First, look at all the excited proposals for a 40K End Times series. That's what the fandom seems to want, more than anything. Now, I didn't closely follow the discussion on the WHFB End Times (not being a WHFB fan), but of what I read, none of it seemed positive. Maybe that's because it was a series that should have been as big as the HH, condensed down to five books, released within the span of a few months.

...That's my view of the current situation, at least. For my own part, it's been a while since I've finished a BL book. Maybe I'll get back into the world eventually; I do still have interest in the setting. But BL's business model is not exactly helping.
 
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