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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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It doesn't say so in the unit entry but I would assume so - otherwise what would he fight in hand to hand with?
 

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... IIRC (pretty sure of this but don't have codex to hand) not from Codex: SM he can't. If he's a standard marine he comes with a bolter, and can swap this for a bolt-pistol and close-combat weapon.

 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Ok, here's how it breaks down.

Codex Space Marines
Basic marines get a Bolter. They may NOT trade this for BP and CCW.
Assault Marines get a Bolt Pistol and CCW. They may NOT trade this for a Bolter.
Veterans, scouts and sarges get either a BP&CCW or a Bolter.

This means that if a squad of space marines with bolters wants to charge into assault, they cannot fire in the shooting phase. (Except for marines with Assault weapons, Terminators, Bikers and Dreadnoughts)

NEW Space Marines (Blood Angels and Dark Angels)
Basic marines get a Bolter AND a Bolt Pistol. They may NOT trade for a CCW.
Assault marines get a Pistol and Chainsword. They may NOT trade for a Bolter.
Veterans, scouts and sarges get a Bolt Pistol and their choice of either a Chainsword or a Bolter.

This means that the new codex marines can opt to fire their bolt pistols (instead of their bolters) and then charge into assault. They do not gain a bonus attack for having two weapons unless they traded their bolter for a chainsword (or some other close combat weapons).

Chaos Space Marines
Almost all squads get Bolt Pistol, CCW AND a Bolter. (There are some exceptions)

This means that if they want to charge, they can opt to fire their pistols instead of bolters, charge in, AND gain a bonus attack for having two weapons.

Bear in mind, you cannot fire both your pistol and your bolter (or other weapon) in the same turn. However, you CAN fire your bolter in the shooting phase, and use your pistol as a second close combat weapon in the assault phase (in case you get charged)

This gives the new marines an advantage over the old ones, and it gives the chaos marines a huge advantage.

There IS a special trait in the SM codex that allows you to arm your guys with pistols and CCWs, but I think it only works for tactical marines, and you have to give up your bolters.
 

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Porn King!!!
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Galahad is 100% correct in his explanation. Anyone who says otherwise to you is vastly mistaken.
 

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Does this seem like it unbalances the line guys? In the BBB it says max 1 one handed weapon and 1 two handed weapon, but new chaos gets that and another 1 handed weapon? for cheaper? wtf?
 

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Think its starting to become the new standard for marines, or chaos, but also think that does give some reason for standard chaos marines as well, otherwise if they didnt have that versatility everyone would take nothing but cult troops, also think it kinda backs the idea of most of the chaos amrines being hundreds to thousands of years old, and mastering all aspects of combat, i mean, seriously how bad ass is to have a csm firing a bolter run out of ammo, slug it around his shoulder take the chain sword and bp from their holsters and start charging someone(fluff wise)
 

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... IIRC (pretty sure of this but don't have codex to hand) not from Codex: SM he can't. If he's a standard marine he comes with a bolter, and can swap this for a bolt-pistol and close-combat weapon.

Not the world's clearest post, but I'm prepared to defend it.

A non-devastator, non-assault marine can swap his bolter for BP&CCW, if he's in a vet squad, a command squad (not on Gal's list), or the chapter has the trait (I think it's 'take the fight to them', but I still haven't found my 'dex) that allows tac squads to do so.

Sorry for confusion, I was in a hurry and shoehorned far more meaning into the words 'standard' and 'can' than they could usefully carry.

 

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Does this seem like it unbalances the line guys? In the BBB it says max 1 one handed weapon and 1 two handed weapon, but new chaos gets that and another 1 handed weapon? for cheaper? wtf?
That was more in reference to what could potentially be wielded simultaneously. Someone at GW realized that it's possible for a model to be carrying more than what he can actually use at once. Fantasy models, for example, can have a spear, hand weapon, and shield-- they can't use all three in combination, but have the choice between what they will use. It's the same concept.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Does this seem like it unbalances the line guys? In the BBB it says max 1 one handed weapon and 1 two handed weapon, but new chaos gets that and another 1 handed weapon? for cheaper? wtf?
Actually, this is a common misocnception.

As far as I know, nothing in the core rules limits the amount of weapons a model can *carry*

In fact, the only rule that's close is in the 3rd ed Codices (not the main book) and it limits the amount of weapons you can *buy* from the wargear list.

The fact of the matter is, there are no rules limiting the amount of weapons you can carry, only the amount you can buy.

For example, a (Codex SM) Librarian comes with a Force Weapon. You can buy him two *other* weapons from the armoury, only one of which can be two handed.
So you can buy your libby a Bolt Pistol and a Storm Bolter, and he keeps his force weapon. He can fire the storm bolter, then charge into assault and gain a bonus attack from the pistol.

Your vet sarge can have two wargear weapons as well as his BP&CCW ;-)

Think about it...swords have scabards, rifles have slings, pistols have holsters ;-)

That said, this does make CSMs very powerful in assault. Being charged by a havoc squad is now as bad as being attacked by a regular space marine assault squad! (What's worse is chaos marines can take assault weapons in place of heavies, so that havoc squad can roll up in a rhino and hop out with a powerfist, icon of khorne and four meltaguns...or flamers)

Does it unbalance them? Not nessecarily. It does make CSMs a fantastic value (15 points for a marine, bolter, pistol, ccw and frag and krak grenades), but they have limitations. They have to have 10 men to get two weapons in their tac squads, but don't have the advantage of combat squads rules. They can't have razorbacks, speeders, assault cannons or storm bolters.

They also don't get 'and they shall know no fear' (and only cult troops are fearless). They have a higher LD score, but once they do break, they have a harder time regrouping.

CSMs are a very assaulty army, but unlike other assault armoes, thye have the option of becoming a good ranged army...but to really use their strengths, they need to gear for assault. This means you can outrange them and try to outmaneuver them.
 

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Porn King!!!
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Taken vastly out of context and sigged ;-)
I've been sigged!!! I am so happy and I may cry.

FUCK YEAH!! LOL.:wild::yahoo:
 

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That said, this does make CSMs very powerful in assault. Being charged by a havoc squad is now as bad as being attacked by a regular space marine assault squad! (What's worse is chaos marines can take assault weapons in place of heavies, so that havoc squad can roll up in a rhino and hop out with a powerfist, icon of khorne and four meltaguns...or flamers)

Does it unbalance them? Not nessecarily. It does make CSMs a fantastic value (15 points for a marine, bolter, pistol, ccw and frag and krak grenades), but they have limitations. They have to have 10 men to get two weapons in their tac squads, but don't have the advantage of combat squads rules. They can't have razorbacks, speeders, assault cannons or storm bolters.

They also don't get 'and they shall know no fear' (and only cult troops are fearless). They have a higher LD score, but once they do break, they have a harder time regrouping.

CSMs are a very assaulty army, but unlike other assault armoes, thye have the option of becoming a good ranged army...but to really use their strengths, they need to gear for assault. This means you can outrange them and try to outmaneuver them.
Agreed with you here gal, also the addition of more standardized marks to chaos and the mixing and matching to show how chaos has giving CSM certain advantages over regular marines, this isnt saying that SM's dont have any advantages over CSM, as well CSM are very CC orientated but very versatile as well, you can have a termy squad with reaper autocannon and power fist and everyone else has lightning claws outfitted for CC you can have a shooting squad change to bp/CC weap say withthe mark of nurgle in the assualt phase if a enemy sqaud is in charging range and suddenly that sqaud becomes a whole lot scarier to assualt, or an assault sqaud that your holding in cover, you rapid fire your bolters against anyone thats close enough and since your trying to hold a objective you switch to bp/cc and again it becomes a very scary unit to assualt, especially assualt units with MoK not as much survivability as other marks, but when your standard marine has 3 attacks thats mean but for all this raw power chaos has, look at their fast attack, raptors and bikes, chaos is VERY slow comparied to some other armies even SM's, so when fighting chaos yeah they are powerful and scary on paper, but you can outmanuver them and when i play at least, i have alot of trouble tackling tau and eldar mech lists, they'll focus their shooting on my longer ranged shooting squads and my rhinos and then once those are out of they way they just fly circles around my foot sloggers
Soo moral of my ranting on is to fight chaos dont go toe to toe with them, just shoot them :victory:
 
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