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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After its twofold nerfing can the greater daemon of Khorne still be justified above units like Skarbrand or a Keeper of Secrets? If you don't have time to read through my lengthy reasoning I'd still be grateful for any opinions you have.

It seems CC FMCs got a hammering with the extra turn needed to rest after swooping and the poxy one attack when smashing. So forget ever swooping to get a turn two charge, and don't bother attacking high armour values unless you think it's a good use of a bloodthirster's time to maybe do one HP of damage to a land raider. I think the swooping thing will also deter deepstriking since you land in swoop mode (?), so presumable would need to change movement type the following turn before finally charging the turn after (turn 4, if you arrived on turn 2). Not that you'd still be alive by that point.

So what does a Bloodthirster do now? Start on the table hopefully out of line of sight or in cover, move 12" and run on turn 1, move 12" and hopefully be within charge range of something on turn 2. At this point is it worth paying all of those points for a unit paying a premium for flight when you aren't using swoop? If my understanding of the rules is correct I think (at least) two alternatives are better now.

Keeper of Secrets
With two greater gifts each the Keeper of Secrets is 80 points cheaper, almost as fast, a psyker and better at dealing with armour thanks to rending. The nerf to smash doesn't hurt as much because of rending, so I'd sooner charge a knight or land raider with the Keeper. The Bloodthirster would seem the better option for attacking other MCs because of the very good chance of IDing with the axe, but the Keeper is so killy it can often do the same thing without needing ID. Preferred enemy eldar will help a lot with wraithknights/lords and avatars, so overall I don't think the advantage against other MCs is such a great argument in favour of the GDoK. Similarly against multi wound characters the ID of the axe isn't often needed because the Keeper has such a good chance of killing the opponent before they can swing back.

The Bloodthirster is still sightly faster, slightly better in combat (though in most situations the difference is negligible or completely irrelevant) and has a good armour save but it isn't a psyker and costs a lot more points. The Keeper can deepstrike and make combat faster and is better at dealing with high armour vehicles.

Skarbrand

Up until now the choice of Bloodthirster or Skarbrand generally seemed to come down to wings. Now what? Skarbrand is still a lot slower but without swooping the Bloodthirster can't pick and choose its targets like it could before, and if a Bloodthirster has to deepstrike straight into swoop mode I'd rather deepstrike the cheaper and even killier Skarbrand.

The Bloodthirster is faster (a big plus, admittedly) and with two greater gifts should usually be a bit more survivable, but from there the advantages all seem to fall with the 65 point cheaper Skarbrand. It's even better in combat and will waste practically anything with ease. Admittedly you could say the same for the two greater daemons discussed, but Skarbrand takes it even further and with armourbane will nuke any vehicle it charges. An imperial knight gets annihilated and a wraithknight does even worse. If you're still reading you probably already know what Skarbrand is capable of, but now MCs don't get to easily kill vehicles with smash Skarbrand is looking a lot better value than it was a week ago.



I'm not making this thread purely to trash the bloodthirster. I'm building a new army at the moment with allied Khorne daemons (yet to buy the daemons thankfully) and I'd rather not use Slaanesh daemons because I had them in the past with a Word Bearer army (4th ed) and I'm not a converter so a Bloodthirster is easier for me to do than Skarbrand. Is my understand of the rule changes correct? Are the assumptions I've made based on those changes a fair assessment? Any feedback would be appreciated, I know things are a bit crazy with a new edition just hitting but I'd be grateful for any input because I'm not 100% on many of the changes that have happened. Thanks :victory:
 

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Ok so I have never played daemons except as 'random events', so take this for what you will:

A Bloodthirster with an axe of khorne doesn't need smash - they've got the axe boost plus they are MC with AP2 +1 to the table attacks. Their regular attacks should be taking out most tanks in a turn. Whilst FMC generally took a nerf, all that really means is that you have a better mobility unit that isn't 'fire and forget' from turn one - you actually need to balance his mobility and killing power with his vulnerability to anti-air and the effectiveness of the enemy's defensive position. In essence - the loss isn't the end of the Daemon's usefullness. It has simply redefined their role.

I would not use a slaneesh daemon because I'm building a Khorne daemon army - sorry.

Skarbrand is tops, but you can only pack one per army. I say take one of each!
 

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you land in swoop mode
if i recall correctly, and i might not, you choose wehter you are swooping or not the moment you arrive. i thinks...it was late when i was reading the manual

EDIT: checked...you land in swoop mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ok so I have never played daemons except as 'random events', so take this for what you will:

A Bloodthirster with an axe of khorne doesn't need smash - they've got the axe boost plus they are MC with AP2 +1 to the table attacks. Their regular attacks should be taking out most tanks in a turn. Whilst FMC generally took a nerf, all that really means is that you have a better mobility unit that isn't 'fire and forget' from turn one - you actually need to balance his mobility and killing power with his vulnerability to anti-air and the effectiveness of the enemy's defensive position. In essence - the loss isn't the end of the Daemon's usefullness. It has simply redefined their role.

I would not use a slaneesh daemon because I'm building a Khorne daemon army - sorry.

Skarbrand is tops, but you can only pack one per army. I say take one of each!
Taking more than one daemon MC would be a nice solution, but in my case they are just allies for my CSM. What I want is a troubleshooter who has the potential to destroy anything, at least in theory (flyers aside). The Bloodthirster was ideal right up until its effective mobility was limited and while it's still good against armour the difference between it and Skarbrand when it comes to high AV or imperial knights is an issue.

With a blade of blood and charging the damage it should do without smashing is

AV 10 = 1 glance 3 pens
AV 11 = 1 glance 2 pens
AV 12 = 1 glance 1 pen
AV 13 = 1 glance
AV 14 = can't hurt

Which is quite a serious hit compared to what it could previously do. Compared to what Skarbrand could do with the same number of attacks, hatred for re-rolls to hit and armourbane on every attack I'd far rather have Skarbrand for knights, land raiders, dreads, monoliths, fortifications etc.

A Khorne daemon army sounds like a lot of fun! I'm challenging myself to make a CC heavy CSM and daemons list which will hopefully be semi competitive and capable of at least giving a good game to some competitive lists. The current idea (1850 pts) is four units of CSM and some flesh hounds starting on the table with an aegis line with comm relay. Then three 6 man units of termies, a lord, Skarbrand and bloodletters deepstriking. It's very unbalanced (has no psykers, no vehicles, has to ignore flyers and has no guns with better than 24" range) but should be quite scary for a gunline and I've never done a deepstrike heavy list before

if i recall correctly, and i might not, you choose wehter you are swooping or not the moment you arrive. i thinks...it was late when i was reading the manual

EDIT: checked...you land in swoop mode.
:cray:

And if it's true that you need an extra turn to transition from a swoop to a charge that kills the idea of a deepstriking bloodthirster. Turn 2 deepstrike arriving in swoop mode (use lash), turn 3 change to glide (use lash again), turn 4 use lash and charge something... finally. If you really want to deepstrike you'd be better taking a Keeper, Skarbrand or maybe a Great Unclean One.
 

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If you really want to deepstrike you'd be better taking a Keeper
Amen that. Less points, chance of good psi power, still killy. Plus, its naked and kinky. I'd say no more blood thirster unless we are playing 2000+ pts. He has become, imo, a second choice HQ. A cc specialist that gets to charge 2 turns after coming on the board (perfect is turn 4, but it can happen that you stay out of cc until turn 6!!!) ? shure, why not...
 
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