[Jay Harvest]

Hey guys,

I would very much appreciate some help in a 1250 point game against Eldar.

My opponent is very competitive and I am pretty sure that he will bring a Wraithknight!

I play Blood Angels and need some help in building a list to give him a decent fight

Hope you can give me some good advice both in list building and tactics

JH

 

[Gret79]

As an eldar player against BA...

I hate sternguard in pods. Eldar (unless they have a billion guardians) suck at bubble wrapping.
Mephiston - Punks wraithknights in 1 round of cc. Goes first, hurts on a 2+ with no save and force weapons them.
Storm Ravens - Too many guns on them in general.
Honour guard with jump packs and plasma guns led by a divination libby (especially if he gets ignores cover). PITA.
Corbulo leading tacs on an objective. Essentially makes one squad immune to shuriken fire - los's anything bigger.

 

[emporershand89]

Oh boy, a personal favoritue of mine. Let me take a crack at this my freind.

When it comes to Blood Angels you need to harness their RAW power, and swiftly use that to pressure your foe. Bring a Death Company...you will need it, and they will greatly counter any Banshee's if he favors those. There Furious Charge mixed with their multiple attacks and ability to champion close combat make them an asset to any Blood Angel's Army.

If you can bring a Librarian, and utilize the power of Wings. Also the Spear (if you can roll it constantly) will greatly help against your WraithKnight.

If you have points to afford Dante grab him, and give them storm shields with power axes. That will eat most Eldar alive, and the Fast Attack units great for disrupting gun platforms should be bring Cannons. Blood Angels have some great fast attack, so try and utlize this to quickly hit him before he can make use of his Psyker's/Heavies.

Finally bring a Baal....lord only knows the bad boys will eat his Gaurdians like they were paper. If you play a higher point value two of these will sweep most infantry from the field. Invest if you favor armor or swift Blitzkreig tactics as the Baal will come in handy.

 

[Jay Harvest]

Alright guys
Thanks for your advice!
Like you say Gret79 I have considered a drop pod with 5 Sternguards with combi-melta as some kind of alpha-strike unit but I think it is somewhat expensive for a one trick pony?
I have been toying with the idea to use Baal Preds or Vindicators, but I think that 2 Baal with HB sponsons and TL AC would be the best loadout? So far I have only used 2 Whirlwinds L
But list-wise I am thinking something like the following:
HQ:
Reclusiarch
Troop:
Assault Squad with PF
Death Company (9) with Land Raider
Fast Attack:
2 x Baal Predators with TLAC % HB sponsons
Land Speeder with HB
My idea is that the HQ joins the DC and runs wild like mad men. The assault squad are well… I need 2 troop choices and the 2 Baal’s for fast support?
Is this just me being silly or?

Empororshand: you would recommend a Librarian instead of a Reclusiarch? I actually thought that Dante was too expensive for this point level?
But maybe I should take more assault squads with jump packs then?

 

[Gret79]

I wouldn't bring a raider or death company tbh.
Eldar are best at taking out small elite forces. I love fighting landraiders - my brightlances count them as av12 which kinda ruins the point.
Death company are overkill against eldar - normal asm's are enough.
Instead of sternguard in a pod, can you take 5 asm's with two meltas and a serge with two melta pistols?
I wouldn't use Dante - his axe ruins his cc at the moment. He gets beat by anyone ap2 who strikes at initiative.
Seriously, look at Mephiston. If he gets near to eldar and they don't have either karandras or asurmen they have nothing to stop him.

 

[Jay Harvest]

Okay, I will try to make a list without the Land raider and DC, this will free up a lot points..
The rumor has that this guy also will bring a lot of AP3 weapons, I don't know how?

If I take a 5 man asm squad i can give the serge af PF and one other guy a melta gun, I don't know the rules about two melta pistols.

I'm looking forward to use Mephiston, but I think that a 1250 point game maybe is too small for him, he clocks in at 250..

I thought that lots of dakka was the way to go, but maybe CC is?

 

[MidnightSun]

There is no game too small for Mephiston. At low points values, it's even less likely that your opponent has counters to him. In bigger games, you can support him fully. Bring Mephiston in every list you make from 750pts onwards unless you're fighting players with a lot of experience killing 'Demolisher Models' (Warboss on Warbike, Mephstion, Thunderwolf Lord, etc.).

If you can negate Eldar's mobility you'll have no problems winning the game, as they don't have the firepower or durability to win a straight fight. The easiest way to do this is to move quickly yourself and back them up in their own table half. If you can do that, Eldar can't usually break out in my experience.

 

[JAMOB]

I'm gonna say this. Eldar shoot shit. And they're fast. I saw DC, don't bring DC. They are slow and die to massed fire... Mephy wouldn't be bad, as most Eldar shots are s6 or s7 (to his t6) and worse than ap2, so he is more survivable than most things... If he takes wraithguard, then plasma is a good idea... If you know he doesn't take lots of lances or meltas I would suggest a land raider (oh my god are these things fun against Eldar)... Combat is great if you can get their intact, but a baal predator or two would be a good idea to deal with any guardians or dire avengers (or other ap4 troops) he might have crawling around. A little melta is enough, flamers are unnecessary because your CC will kill them enough... idk. Eldar are tough for me

 

[emporershand89]

Eldar shots are s6 or s7

Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).

Seriously, look at Mephiston.

Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice. Gret/Jay Harvest he is a good idea depending on how you play, but you need a Rhino to move him quickly to the front else he becoems a sniper's target.

Dante is a good choice for Fast Attack Blood Angel armies. He its hard and his Leadership will keep them fighting till only he is still standing. Additionally his abilities are good for support, and when you work in conjunction with 2-3 other ASM squads it makes for a deadly combination. That being said he does not hit as hard or fast as Mephiston, and needs to be carefully place to be effective.

Death company are overkill against eldar - normal asm's are enough

Exactly why we need them, MAUHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

Ahem, aside my my evil genius moment, Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar.

It is true what Gret says, Assault SM's are fast and sufficient against Edlar, but only just sufficient. ASM cost more, and to loose them is a hit that can set you back early game. Put the Death Company in a Rhino/LandRaider and then see how much damage they do. Additionally back them u with a Baal and ASM can just go home..

you would recommend a Librarian instead of a Reclusiarch? I actually thought that Dante was too expensive for this point level?
But maybe I should take more assault squads with jump packs then?

Either is good, but I would take Librarian over Reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch is good, but when it comes the Bood Angels Librarians are better. I have foudn they are more effective, and with good rolls you can make good effect of their psychic powers. Plus the special Blood Angel psyker abilities are mong the best in the Astartes, and yo can make use of them when vrsing Eldar; esecially Farseer's and Warlocks.

 

[darkreever]

Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).

And any half decent Eldar player is going to be fielding anywhere from three to six units capable of mounting shuriken cannons, starcannons, eldar missile launchers, bright lances, scatter lasers, or pulse lasers.

You know, warwalkers, wave serpeants, vypers, guardian jetbikes, falcons, fire prisms, wraithlords, or guardian defenders. Then you have things like wraithguard and wraithknights and their wave cannons/heavy wave cannons.

 

[Nordicus]

And any half decent Eldar player is going to be fielding anywhere from three to six units capable of mounting shuriken cannons, starcannons, eldar missile launchers, bright lances, scatter lasers, or pulse lasers.

I can confirm this. I play in the same battlegroup as Jay Harvest, and the Eldar player in question bases his army on 3 loadouts: shuriken cannons, scatter lasers and starcannons. He has built his list around high strength (with a chance of AP3) essentially, bikes and a Wraithknight.

Oh and all his groundtroops are always in Wave Serpents, but I bet you already guessed that one.

Just FYI for all those helping out

 

[Gret79]

Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice. Gret/Jay Harvest he is a good idea depending on how you play, but you need a Rhino to move him quickly to the front else he becoems a sniper's target.

He's slow if you don't count his psychic jump pack or fleet. As a 1 man unit he's easy to hide too. He should make combat.

PS - No one takes rangers (eldar snipers) anymore - they're expensive and die as soon as anything gets into range. And a squad of 5 will hit with 3-4, so you're looking at 1-2 wounds. If you see 10 laugh and use a flamer on them...

Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar.

Death company are cheap? I've never seen that written before. Usually wipe basic eldar? Tactical marines usually wipe basic eldar. 1 man with a stick could wipe basic eldar. My budgies could wipe basic eldar :laugh: - you don't need the extra attacks at all. If you hit and wipe them in one turn, you've just left yourself open to getting shot off the table by everything else. We have fire dragons, wraithguard etc against these weapons, you survive as long as a normal marine most of the time.
FNP means you survive slightly longer against starcannons and fireprisms but you can take priests for that with normal marines. Not scoring also sucks too.

I agree on Baal predators (the flame variant) and Librarians - although I'd take divination over the standard powers with them (Book powers for Meph, you need the psychic jump pack)
Every power in divination is useful

Presience - re-roll shooting
Scriers Gaze - makes sure your Baal appears where it's needed
Perfect Timing - Stick it on a heavy support unit = Screw you wave serpents. You only need three glances to down them

 

[emporershand89]

He should make combat.

I must disagree, and Rangers were the least of my concerns. Most of the time Heavies, Elites, and psyker-based units will target him; or his squad. I sually loose him within 2-3 turns if I do not rush him to the front. I favor Rhino's heavily, but Drop Pod or Deep Strike works well to. Idea is to drop him and watch him do his job.....Fire and Forget.

In the case of Eldar he should, however I'd be concern if a Walker/Falcon targeted him.

Death company are cheap?

Why yes, have you looked at the Point Value for an Astarte? A Squad of Astarte? It's very expensive, and not cheap when company to other Codex's, so you generally dont see over 8-10 models a group. I can whore those Death Squad, and then dump then to eat unit after unit. Personally if you want to make use of them treat them like cannon fodder; the more the merrier.

I'd take divination over the standard powers

Eh...your choice. I just find the standard powers to my liking, but Divination works too. Witht he new rules it may actually be the better of the two.

 

[Gret79]

I must disagree, and Rangers were the least of my concerns. Most of the time Heavies, Elites, and psyker-based units will target him; or his squad. I sually loose him within 2-3 turns if I do not rush him to the front. I favor Rhino's heavily, but Drop Pod or Deep Strike works well to. Idea is to drop him and watch him do his job.....Fire and Forget. In the case of Eldar he should, however I'd be concern if a Walker/Falcon targeted him.

Who said anything about not rushing him to the front? He should be going in fast, with a couple of other units to take the heat off him - like meltas in pods and fast transports with some heavy weapons covering him. If you just run him up the board in the open you'll lose him. However, if you're playing with enough terrain then you should be able to get near without ever being in LOS of units that will kill you.
I've not seen a falcon in an eldar list for a very long time - not as survivable as a wave serpent, not as much fire power, not as much transport capacity and takes up an already over crowded slot in HS. People also prefer prisms too.

or his squad

Mephiston cannot lead a squad - he doesn't have the independant character rule.

Why yes, have you looked at the Point Value for an Astarte? A Squad of Astarte? It's very expensive, and not cheap when company to other Codex's, so you generally dont see over 8-10 models a group.

You also generally don't see more than 8-10 marines in a squad as most marines can only be taken in units of up to 10...
Your death company blob in a squad above 10 can't fit in a transport (unless FW or landraider - and for the latter, I take bright lances) so it's slow (unless you pay the premium for jump packs so they cost even more) and still isn't scoring.
And death company IIRC cost 60pts for 3 and then 20 ppm after that. Tacticals cost about 160 points for 10 - so you're saving about 40points per squad which you can put towards a fair amount of things.

 

[JAMOB]

Is that the higher-point models; or are those your basic Gaurdians? JAMOB? Just saying I don't think your basic squad's weapons are S6(mre like S2-4).

The main strength of the Eldar is their ability to pump out tons of s6/7 shots, that and their damned mobility, all for not that much. With mephy, then wound on 3s or 4s rather than 2s which is fantastic. Even with those s4 shots (and what s2 shots are there?) he's more survivable because they woudn on 6s not 4s. So... yeah. Vote Mephy :victory:

Death Company are good for two reasons Gret. The first is they come in numbers, and are cheap, cheap, cheap!! I can field 30 of these suckers for a decent price with a Chaplian to guide them; meaning I overpower you in sheer nubers and can afford to take a few hits. Secondly, as I mentioned before, they hit hard and usually wipe your basic eldar.

Oh yeah, 30 for 600 points plus the 130 reclusiarch and any upgrades is totally super cheap! Not like it's more than half of your force or anything... Seriously though, most Eldar players will be able to just run around the DC and shoot them to death (or ignore them and kill everything else).

It is true what Gret says, Assault SM's are fast and sufficient against Edlar, but only just sufficient. ASM cost more, and to loose them is a hit that can set you back early game. Put the Death Company in a Rhino/LandRaider and then see how much damage they do. Additionally back them u with a Baal and ASM can just go home..

Assault marines are 10 points less for 10 guys (ignoring upgrades) and can take better upgrades in addition to being twice as fast (and therefore harder to outmaneuver). In addition, you can take multiple squads of them kitted out to your hearts desire.

Mephiston is the God od all Blood Angels, and honeslty it's him or Dante when I take my armies into battle. Mephiston hits hard, hits often, and usually champions 1v1 battles. That being said he is as slow a fuck, and against the swift Eldar he may not be the best choice.

DC are faster? But Mephy does have wings which is a pretty damned good shot of getting a JP every turn. Not amazing, but a damn sight better than just a bunch of footsloggers.

Dante is a good choice for Fast Attack Blood Angel armies. He its hard and his Leadership will keep them fighting till only he is still standing. Additionally his abilities are good for support, and when you work in conjunction with 2-3 other ASM squads it makes for a deadly combination. That being said he does not hit as hard or fast as Mephiston, and needs to be carefully place to be effective.

Dante is not a bad idea, but I personally prefer mephy for all his killy goodness. Your call though mate.

Either is good, but I would take Librarian over Reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch is good, but when it comes the Bood Angels Librarians are better. I have foudn they are more effective, and with good rolls you can make good effect of their psychic powers. Plus the special Blood Angel psyker abilities are mong the best in the Astartes, and yo can make use of them when vrsing Eldar; esecially Farseer's and Warlocks.

My rule is Reclusiarch if you have DC (because he makes them so much better) and Libby the rest of the time. I rarely take reclusiarchs, and I've never regretted taking a librarian.


*EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings k:

 

[Gret79]

*EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings

Not a chance, I refuse to ignore them as they're relevent! :laugh:

Especially the part about DC

 

[JAMOB]

Fair enough mate

 

[emporershand89]

But Mephy does have wings which is a pretty damned good shot of getting a JP every turn. Not amazing, but a damn sight better than just a bunch of footsloggers.

True, but I need to roll for those wings compared to not having to run the risk of getting eaten by Deamonic's with the Assault Marines. Again it is really a layers preference, but I usually don't take Mephy for his psyker power(even though that is why they invented him in the first place). I take him because he's a One-Man Army.

I rarely take reclusiarchs, and I've never regretted taking a librarian.

Smart choice, but both have their benefits.

*EDIT* damn I didn't see the second page... ignore my ramblings

Eh, it's cool :good: Welcome to Heresy

IIRC cost 60pts for 3 and then 20 ppm after that. Tacticals cost about 160 points for 10

True, but for 15-20 it's only really 300-400 points. Even if I did take 30 I see it as a worthwhile investment in higher point games that are +1,000pts. They are the blob squad, and an OP blob squad at that. I don't need them to be fast but that invest is worthwhile considering their CQC prowness. I just need them to close range and draw fire/blob for my more elite units to kill the big guys first. That or drop pod them in and let them eat my opponent alive.

Mephiston cannot lead a squad - he doesn't have the independant character rule

Yes, I mean more with a squad in support. Or a squad in front, take your pic. Mixing him with the common warrior brings some excellent results (though watch for Deamonic's, I have lost him too many times to count to these buggers).

 

[ntaw]

Even if I did take 30 I see it as a worthwhile investment in higher point games that are +1,000pts. They are the blob squad, and an OP blob squad at that. I don't need them to be fast but that invest is worthwhile considering their CQC prowness.

They'd be fun on the charge, but if you don't get the charge they're nothing special even with WS5 all around. Being slow is a serious detriment to a CC squad, specially when your opponent's troops are in fast transports as Nordicus pointed out.

That or drop pod them in and let them eat my opponent alive.

10 guys with virtually no firepower presence the turn they show up is hardly going to survive if they're close enough to move in to charge the following turn. Barring extravagantly dense terrain and either a misjudgment or bad dice on your opponent's end of things that squad is going to get shot up and be charging at much less than its intended strength. FnP is good, but it's nothing to rely on.

I have never faced Eldar but I have faced gunline IG, stand and shoot CSM, and Tau with my BA, as well as a 'crushing-to-advance-on' 90+ SM list. From this I am drawing the conclusion that without a decidedly armoured entrance for the squad (ie. a LRC/R or SR if your opponent doesn't have much Skyfire), as well as enough other high priority targets to draw fire from it, DC just aren't fast enough to be worth their points against high rate of fire opponents. They aren't fast enough to get in on foot (specially with terrain in the way to block LoS/provide cover), and because they have the reputation they do any opponent worth a spit is going to put anything they can spare on that squad.

I dunno. Maybe my opponent is just wise to my BA tactics, maybe I suck as a player and don't know how to use my DC, maybe none of this even matters because the dice gods have the last laugh anyway. It was bugging me not to comment on this just because I haven't faced Eldar.

 

[emporershand89]

I dunno. Maybe my opponent is just wise to my BA tactics, maybe I suck as a player and don't know how to use my DC, maybe none of this even matters because the dice gods have the last laugh anyway.

Probably was him bro, your point is solid and your probably a decent player dude. That being said it's my take on the Blood Angels Death Company; which is sadly based on my addicition to their Codex. I borrowed heavily when formulating my own chatper's background.

specially when your opponent's troops are in fast transports as Nordicus pointed out.

Indeed quite, however if I drop them just close enough to become effective then they will disrupt his lanes of fire for more elite units to do the job. But as you pointed out in lesser point games such losses are critical. Indeed it's a issue.