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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Guys

I'm going up against Chaos Space Marines in a 1250 point match
I know that he will bring the following:

Deamon Prince
Helldrake
Vindicator
Obliterators
Plauge Marines

Do you have any suggestions on how to beat the traitor? ;)

would dual Storm ravens be a good idea og a single ADL ?
Spamming of Jump Marines or a more shooty approach?
Death Company in a Raider?

Hope you can help!

JH
 

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Moved to 40k General where it'll get more visibility.

Mod stuff aside, it looks like he's got a pretty solid list there. The big issue for your Marines is likely to be the Vindicator and Heldrake as they both drop low AP templates that'll take your Marines out pretty quickly.

Plague Marines are pretty durable too. If it wasn't for the Vector Striking of the Heldrake I'd suggest bringing some of your own Vindicators (since they're Fast vehicles for BA and can put the hurt on much quicker). I honestly don't know how to pick apart that CSM list with BA though so I'll leave the floor open to those who know more about doing that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ohh sorry for the misplacement of the post :)

Would it be more durable to play my army as Vanilla Marines?

JH
 

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Ohh sorry for the misplacement of the post :)
No problem. Just didn't think you'd get as much feedback with this in the Introductions forum. :grin:

Would it be more durable to play my army as Vanilla Marines?

JH
From a competitive standpoint: probably. I know the Vanilla book looks pretty solid and that I've seen a lot of negative talk regarding the BA book since the edition started. I'm mainly a Sisters player branching back out into CSM though so take that with some salt as I'm not speaking from first hand knowledge there.
 

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1250 pts is very hard to do with BA.
However the CSM list has a couple of weaknesses:
1) Daemon prince. the guy is really overconfident. a stalker rhino and an aegis with icarus lascannon will cover both the drake and the daemon prince. also, massed bolters will bring down the critter. you just need a failed grounding test. never forget he is probably putting 250 pts into the beast!
2) scoring troops. unless he takes a token nurgle lord he will just have a couple of cultists units. if that is the case you just need to obliterate them and not be tabled in order to win the game. otherwise he will just have a couple of plague marines units, say a maximum of 15-16 power armoured guys. durable, but not so much. plasma and melta are your friends.

Then, the oblits: never forget they cannot overwatch and only have 2 attacks each. The best thing you can do with them is tarpit them with some cc scouts.

I don't know the BA codex very well, but, for vanilla SM i'd suggest you to approach this enemy with an army comprised by lots of well placed firing squads (devastators, centurions, predators, thunderfire cannons), a couple of anti air units as above, some razorbacks to hold small tac squads and some cc element to disrupt enemy fire (cc scouts, infiltrating properly, can be a very nasty resource: 60 points for 5 scouts cc geared and a meltabombs sarge, they can spell doom for any vindicator approaching or just be used as shields in the face of obliterators. 60 goddam points....)

So just to give an example of how i would deal with the guy: (bear in mind i'm not a good SM player...so...)

Captain
Artificer Armour
Power Axe
Meltabombs
(130)

5 Devastators
4 missile launchers
(130)

Aegis defence line + icarus lascannon
(85)

Stalker
extra storm bolter
(80)

Thunderfire cannon
Tech marine
(100)

5 marines
meltagun
Razorback
TL lascannon
(155)

5 marines
meltagun
Razorback
TL lascannon
(155)

6 Scouts
5 sniper rifle
(71)

6 Scouts
cc weapon + pistol
meltabombs sarge
(71)

Dreadnought
Drop pod
(135)

Dreadnought
Drop pod
(135)

-1247 pts-

The plan is simple:
-The captain and the devastators stay behind the aegis. Captain man the lascannon icarus, going for daemon prince or heldrake, deavastators go for vindicators and then plague marines.

-Stalker is just behind them, shooting DP or heldrake or both if situation requires it.

-Small marines squads sits into razorbacks, waiting to spint midfield conesting objectives.

-Razorbacks go for obliterators, then vindicator, then plague marines (they are few, every dead counts)

-Thunderfire stays in good and bolstered cover (aim at a 3+), detatched from main force, maybe "protected" by Sniper squad and blast the hell out of any enemy scoring troop as the snipers will too.

-Cc scouts go for the vindi if needed or otherwise act as a human shield for more important units. they can score and should be used accordingly to force the opponent to waste precious fire on that silly 60 pts. they are just better armed cultists that won't flee.

-the first turn drop pod tries to kill the vindicator. then go for plague marines.

-the second dropped dreddy tries to kill the vindi if the first one failed. Otherwise go for the oblits if they are still a threat. Otherwise go for plague marines.

Some notes:
Target priority is key. 1) Drake 2)oblits 3) DP 4)Vindi 5) the rest
Multiple menaces to your enemy is key. You want him to over react to your dreadnoughts, you want him to go chasing that thunderfire cannon with the drake.
I assume that you have enough anti air to deal with both the critters. When the DP goes to ground, jump on him with missiles, tacticals and razorbacks. TL lascannons, if needed, can be useful antiair, albeit unreliable.
As the Codex says: "Concentrate on a target with the exclusion of all else. Obliterate the target. Find a new target."
My two cents
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for your thoughts nerferhet it acctually sounds like a sound tactical plan, there is alot of firepower and I fully se your strategy! good thinking with the stalker (I have to proxy that)

are the CC scouts any good against plauge marines with T5 poisen and FnP?

And with his amount of firepower are the Razorbacks not just easy First Blood?

I will defenetly build my list around some of your choices.

Sternguard and Deathcompany are no go?

I very much like your note on target priority and what the codex says it sounds like common sense but I never thought of that :)

Thanks!

JH
 

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Oblits deepstriking into your backline will potentially ruin any vehicles you have. That lone stalker if you use it is likely doomed. Even the adl could be in trouble as if oblits survive then they can tie up your adl plus when you're shooting the oblits the rest of his force could be left thus giving him more advantage.
 

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Well... I'm going to ignore the possibility of playing vanilla just because I like BA too much... This is a tough thing to deal with. Helldrakes can kill a rhino and then kill the squad inside of it in one turn, and vindicators are always good...

Libbies are always good for divination, plus free powersword... Twin ravens is a huge bit of your points, but I think they could do well. I'm not sure that they're necessary, but they are fun to play with. Normally I would suggest the av13 wall, but with d3 + 1 s7 hits on side armor 11 that might not be wise. I think that mobility will be your friend here. The ravens are probably the way to go, since they can't really get hurt by helldrakes (even vector strikes aren't amazing), and then for the other 750 I would have 2-3 assault squads and a librarian with a sanguinary priest (saves 1/3 of your marines from the helldrake). Make sure to play them in a line so that the helldrake can't get all that many of them at once, though even then it's not great... Just my thoughts. GLHF

-Jon
 

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I don't have time right now to comment further on this, but I play BA excessively against a daemon prince, two heldrakes, and a vindicator.

Promise to get into this in my spare time tomorrow!
 

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2) scoring troops. unless he takes a token nurgle lord he will just have a couple of cultists units.
A little note from me, as I have played this opponent several times (Yes, me and Jay Harvest are in the same battlegroup);

- He usually takes a Terminator Nurgle lord, who is CC based with Fisticlaws.

- He takes 2-3 squads of 6-7 plaguemarines in each their rhino. Each squads aspiring champion has a powerfist.

- If he does bring cultists, it's a lonely squad of 10 which he puts in reserve to come in late in the game.

- The vindicator is almost a must, he always brings it. If he doesn't he brings a defiler in stead. In any case, bit pieplate of fuck-you-armor.

- The The daemon prince is not a sure call, but he has brought it a couple of times against me. Wings, power armor, mace. You know the score.

- He's learning to use his heldrake, so I wouldn't actually count on him using vector strike. I would more count on him grilling infantry with it, and him using his Oblits to bust open vehicles. As such, Vindicators might not be a bad idea.

Just a few notes from here on :)
 

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- He usually takes a Terminator Nurgle lord, who is CC based with Fisticlaws.

- He takes 2-3 squads of 6-7 plaguemarines in each their rhino. Each squads aspiring champion has a powerfist.
Thats a helluva points right here...adding the heldrake and the vindi and 3 oblits...not much left for him to bring a DP.
 

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not much left for him to bring a DP.
Exactly why the Daemonprince is a "maybe" in his list. It depends on if he goes with 2 or 3 squads of Plague Marines.

I've only encountered him with a Daemon prince once, and he never brought it after that one game.

(Then again, Maybe it's because I play Daemons, had 3 of them and just charged his Daemon Prince with one of mine to be sacrificed. Then we both smashed, and both were instantkilled - The only problem was that his was more expensive than mine and I had 2 more :p I think that made him think that Daemon Princes are too easy to kill and he didn't think they were worth it.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Allright
I hope that the list Nordicus are the right one, I think I will build my list to counter the mentioned.
And yes, I have 2 Ravens and are dying to try them out.. or maybe they are the ones who is going to die :D
But it is best to run them as gunships / heavy support and not as transports?
But are Assault Marines strong enough in CC without any AP weapons?
Thinking about the Plauge Marines and Terminators?
What about Assault Terminators and Death Company?
I also considered Fragioso or a DC dread?
Vindicators, Baal or regular Preds are no-go ?
I’m looking forward to your 2 cents ntaw J

 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Nordicus haha I think you are right DP or not, 3 againts 1 I think you only make that mistake once... But as you said, even Mephiston will get crushed in CC with a DP
That's why I think that he will bring one against me.

But maybe it is a bit cheesy to bring 2 birds?!

JH
 

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That's why I think that he will bring one against me.
He might aye, but considering he's going for a Nurgle themed army (he has done this, without question, in every single match) he's quickly running out of points if he brings a 265 point Prince (Armor, wings, Black Mace, Nurgle).

I would bring the Aegis with the quad gun for flying regardless, and prioritize from there. The Heldrake is a sure thing, so you need that one - If he brings a prince, you can always shoot him down as well and pick him off with the Stormravens and other shooty stuff.
 

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even Mephiston will get crushed in CC with a DP
Maybe. If you're caught in the open and he has a demon weapon then yes. If you take Meph and the DP goes anywhere near him, get in cover. Get the DP to init 1 and the DP won't even get to swing against him.
AFAIK, DP's don't get grenades and Mephiston can very quickly buff himself upto st10. When he's st10, it'll take 1 unsaved wound to kill the DP

If he doesn't have a demon weapon for the extra d6 attacks, then he may not even kill you if he gets the charge in the open (providing you've not been wounded already)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The game is TEW I don't know if that changes anything?

But it sounds like Mephiston is a gamble?

And the more safer choice would be the Ravens with TL Las, TL MM and the Blood Strikes ?
 

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Mephiston will lose in CC against a DP every single time unless that DP is charging him and attacking at I1 -or- that same DP rolls 1 for his Daemon Weapon. Trust me in the amount of times I have lost him in the same scenario. If you're not facing the DP he's more viable, but like it has been said it's unsure of whether you will be facing him or not.

ADLs in a BA army are a waste of time if you have two SRs, but in this instance since you're only facing one bird and it sounds like it can only Vector Strike your SR I would say one will suffice. I play two against a pair of drakes and typically come out even. With the ADL, S7 will disappoint you against AV12. It's why I switched all unpainted tactical and heavy weapon marines to Imperial Fists a while ago in my armies. Great synergy there, and the QD stacked with Tank Hunters is great.

I'd do something like this:

Libby - JP

Furioso - talons, HF (also fun as a Fragioso, but with a twist in the delivery)

Priest - JP, PS

10 man RAS - 2x HF, 2x F

10 man RAS - 2x MG, PS

10 man RAS - 2x MG, DP (this is for that Vindicator T1)

Stormraven - TLLC, TLMM, HB sponsons

1,240 points. Maybe a hand flamer for the libby?

I'd put the Libby and the Priest in the Flamer RAS squad, and run the MG RAS close by. DP comes in T1 and nukes the Vindicator, if he sets up defensively he's already limited how he can use it the following turn. Using the MGs on a rhino that's being used to block the Vindi can also get you First Blood and cause mayhem with his front line suddenly getting a flat while the rest of your army catches up. If you go first and your SR comes in before the Heldrake don't get so far forward that he can VS you coming onto the board. Use you TLLC to target any armour threats to your forward lines and bide your time a minute so that you can take the drake out when it comes in. If your raven comes on second, move on and enjoy nuking that drake. I take Blenderfists against marines every damn time because unless there's a PF in the squad all they can do is die or run. AV13 wins me games in this aspect, and even with the PF in the squad unless the dice are against you I'm sure you'll cause enough wounds to get to him at AP3. If the squad has 2+ armour saves, you shouldn't have charged in with your Furioso. If you want to run the Fragioso, you can be a little bit more daring in your flying around because you don't need to go to Hover mode for that model to be used appropriately. I often Skies of Blood that sucker in as the SR zooms off to deal with more fliers/tanks and let the scatter dice be the end of it. This model is super effective T1 in a DP, but against what it looks like you're up against I strongly advise the MG alpha strike instead of hoping for Rending to pull through. It's pretty friggin' awesome to drop a AV13 walker on the board later on in the game once some units have been blown away. I play two SRs with a Blenderfist and a Fragioso and enjoy much success.

How does that look, do you have the models for such a list? If not, let me know what you could sub in and we can chat it up man.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Thank you very much!
This list looks very good, I have all the models for your list. Except the priest, but I usually proxy a sang-guard model as the priest.
You say 10 man assault marines in the pod, the idea is nice, but are they not very vulnerable in the next turns with CC weapons and without jump packs?
You would not recommend 5 man sternguards with combi-melta for the alpha strike?
I also have the DC dred with talons, is that not better than the Fusioso?
And just to be sure, are you saying I can drop the dred with skies of blood? Never considered that!
The match is tomorrow at 16, so we have some time to perfect the list further J
Thanks again for your help ntaw

JH
 
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