Hell no!

A Landraider counts as moveing as fast as possbile when it arraives from deep stiek(along with everyhting else). The Machine spirirt allows it to fire 1 weapon as per normal but poping smoke is done INSTEAD of shooting. I know some will try to argue that you can pop smoke with a Landraider but you can always shoot 1 weapon but machine spirirt ruels do not say that you overide smoke.

Why would you DS a Landraider in the first place? It can move forwaed for 2 turns and shoot and still unlead it's contence while DS it would mean you cna only fire 1 weapon on turn 2...if you arrive on turn 2 and you can't disenbark and you may lose 300+pts worth of modals from mishaps

 

It counts as moving at cruising speed when it arrives from deep strike, and could then use it's smoke launchers.

If it did so, it couldn't fire (smoke launchers forbid any weapons from being fired). If it didn't use smoke, it could fire one weapon using PotMS.

 

It can indeed fire one weapon when it lands, as Forkbanger says. It counts as moving at cruising speed, which means it can't fire any weapons, PotMS lets you fire one more weapon that you normally would, so you can fire 1 weapon.

If it did so, it couldn't fire (smoke launchers forbid any weapons from being fired). If it didn't use smoke, it could fire one weapon using PotMS.

Not that I'd argue it myself, but there are some around who argue that you can use smoke and fire a weapon with PotMS It's a RAW vs. RAI thing.* You can search the forums for the threads on it.


*note to all others, this is not an invitation to start THAT argument again:wacko:. Leave it for another thread!

 

Popping smoke is not done instead of one attack or as an ordnance or whatever. It specifically says "vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the
same turn as it used its smoke launchers". Regardless of deep striking, cruising speed, shaken etc. It seems to me that you can ALWAYS pop smoke, even if a vehicle is immobilized, and the crew shaken or stunned. And if you do pop smoke, you can't fire any weapons...
However... what about walkers/assault vehicles?

 

Er... what about them?

It is not that you may fire one weapon using PotMS after popping Smoke (since 0+1=1), it is that you may not pop smoke at all if the vehicle fires. Any Fire=no smoke.

 

You pop smoke before you fire weapons. It happens at the end of the movement phase.

It's a very grey area if PotMS lets you fire or not. I would tend to say No, but possibly Yes

Aramoro

 

The order doesn't matter. There are plenty of things in the game that say you may not do if you are doing something else later.

 

You just said it did matter. Name one of those things out of interest

Popping smoke say you may fire no Weapons, PotMS lets you fire one more than normal 0+1 = 1.

Aramoro

 

FYI, Cruising Speed says 'No Weapons', not '0' weapons. No Weapons is exactly what it says and does not equal 0.

Do the BAshave a special version of PotMS?

 

Do the BAshave a special version of PotMS?

BloodPower of the BloodMachine BloodSpirit.

 

PotMS specifically mentions that it can fire an extra weapon moving at Cruising speed, thats why it works.

Aramoro

 

Ok, I must remember the old version of it then... I'm surprised they changed that from the last codex.

 

But it's not 0+1=1, it's [1(normal attack)+1(PotMS)]x0(Smoke)=0. It does not say "When popping smoke, you lose one ranged attack for each ranged attack you normally have".

 

What? Can you give me a justification for it working that way then. Rules quotes from the BRB should do.

Aramoro

 

[quote="BRB, page 62]The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers.[/quote]
I don't have the SM codex, but I remember that the PotMS LR can only fire weapons that it can fire normally. Since it can not fire any of it's weapons, I think it's pretty clear it can't fire any of it's weapons.

 

So you pop smoke in the preceding movement phase. It gets to your shooting phase and 'The Vehicle may not fire any of it's Weapons' Boo. But wait PotMS will let me fire one more weapon than I normally could. I could normally fire no weapons so I can now fire one.

I mean 'Vehicles moving at Cruising Speed may not fire' Is pretty clear but PotMS lets them fire 1 weapon. 'Therefore, a Land Raider that has moved at combat speed can fire two weapons, and a Land Raider that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a 'Crew Stunned' or 'Crew Shaken' result can fire a single weapon'

That is where the confusion comes in. It's tiny details between the phrases

The Vehicle may not fire any of it's Weapons

and

Vehicles moving at Cruising Speed may not fire

Thats why it is a grey area.

Aramoro

 

PotMS will let me fire one more weapon than I normally could. But I could normally fire no weapons, so it doesn't really help me much.

I fixed it for you

Since it's specified, it's an exception. Cruising Speed, Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken are all in the BRB, as are Smoke Launchers. The first three are listed as being granted an attack with PotMS, but the last one is not even mentioned. If it was a 4th ed SM codex, and if Smoke Launchers were introduced in the 5th edition, I'd see the confusion; it's not on the list because it didn't exist. But I think this is pretty clear.

 

That list is mearly an example though, hence why it says Therefore. I don't like custard, therefore I don't like custard doughnuts. The fact in that statement is that I don't like custard not that I only do not like custard doughnuts.

The fact of the PotMS is that it lets you fire one more weapon than normal. Therefore I can fire one weapon at cruising speed and if I pop smoke.

Aramoro

 

The custard is a bad analogy. Let's continue with bad analogies.
If I have nitrous in my car, I can go ~50 mph faster, so if I pop it while standing still, I'll speed up to 50 mph almost instantly. The fact in that statement is taht I can go 50 mph faster, and 0+50=50 mph.

 

The way I read it was that you get to fire an extra weapon if you didn't move more than 6". What does the rule state now?

 

Let's adapt your bad analogies.
If I have nitrous in my car, I can go ~50 mph faster, so if I pop it while moving, my speed will increase by 50mph almost instantly. However, setting my emergency brakes prevents me from moving at all, so what happens if the nitrous is popped while the emergency brake is set?
Answer, cannot move.

 

Your analogy is awful and not applicable to this situation.

The problem is

The Vehicle may not fire any of it's Weapons

and

Vehicles moving at Cruising Speed may not fire

are very very similar. So similar I don't think you can legitimated say they are functionally different. You would have to try really really hard to dig up why they are functionally different.

The question really is is the list of things that PotMS effects mearly an example of things which it could work on OR and exhaustive list of all things that it works on.

Aramoro

 

the question was "can i pop smoke after deep-striking and fire one weapon". the way i see it that, assuming that even after poping smoke you can fire one weapon, you shouldn't be able to. i'd say the POTMS can't override both rules, regardless of the argument for, or against, firing a weapon after using smoke grenades. but that's just what makes sense to me

 

What if I have nitrous in my doughnuts and custard in my car?

These terrible analogies are confusing to me, please help.

 

What if I have nitrous in my doughnuts and custard in my car?

Then you should apply your emergency brake to pop smoke.

Aramoro

 

you'd be able to rotate one more wheel than normally allowed when you have the emergency brake on.

 

I myself do play with Landraiders and as far as I'm concerned is no you can't use POTMS after popping smoke.

why? well a normal vehicle can't shoot after popping smoke because logically they can't draw line of sight through the smoke (even with radar or any other advanced targeting gear the vehicle may have it would make it inaccurate) and POTMS wouldn't help in this case either.

As for movement it is of little consequence since you can pop smoke regardless of how far you move.

As for being able to shoot after deepstriking (count as moving 12") you need to be a fast vehicle to do so.

So the Landraider as has been mentioned can either pop smoke or fire a single weapon.

Anyways my 2 bits.

 

I myself do play with Landraiders and as far as I'm concerned is no you can't use POTMS after popping smoke.

why? well a normal vehicle can't shoot after popping smoke because logically they can't draw line of sight through the smoke (even with radar or any other advanced targeting gear the vehicle may have it would make it inaccurate) and POTMS wouldn't help in this case either.

This is a rules arguement. Unfortunately "can't fire because it can't draw LOS through smoke" is not supported one bit. In fact, by applying your logice, they should be able to shoot anyway, with a 4+ cover save OR the enemy can't draw LOS to the Tank.

The problem with all this? Logic/Common Sense doesn't hold in a rules arguement.

 

wait, so we can travel sideways across space and time, and exterminate whole planets at once, and have tiny controlled nuclear fusion reactors inside a rifle, and send telepathic messages through lightyears of empty space, but we can't aim a gun through smoke?

 

You got it spot on mate (as far as the rules go atleast.)

But maybe its a bit more than simple smoke? Because it also blocks out enemey radar, heat seeking missles /whatever.

 

touche good sir

 

Deepstriking - Counts as moving at cruising speed, for a non fast vehicle that will not allow said tank to fire. So that's no weapons normally permitted for the land raider in this instance

Smoke Launchers - The vehicle may not fire any of it's weapons in the same turn it used it's smoke launchers - so that's no weapons from the land raider normally permitted to fire.

PotMS from Codex BA, pg 37. "The vehicle can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted" So it is permitted to fire no weapons through the use of deepstriking and through smoke launchers, then PotMs allows it to fire one more than permitted. and that is the order it goes by too. Start of the movement phase(DS), end of movement phase(Smoke), shooting phase. I can't really see how it can be argued otherwise outside of a fluff perspective but that's completely irrelevant in a rules dispute

 

You're missing out one crucial detail. PotMS only enables it to fire a weapon that it can normally fire, but after Smoke Launchers it can't normally fire any weapon.

 

You're reading the rule wrong there. It can fire one more weapon than it is normally permitted. If it can normally fire the weapon why have a special rule to allow it to fire it anyway? one more than normally permitted means that if it can't fire any weapons(0 weapons permitted) it can fire one more than normally permitted (0+1 = 1)

 

No weapons means no weapons. It is not a number of weapons that can be modified, it is an absolute statement. If you do not acknowledge this fact then PotMS allows the Land Raider to fire a weapon in the movement phase and in the assault phase. No weapons may normally be fired in these phases, but PotMS lets you fire one more.

 

Wow, this is a legitimate question that could have been discussed to some conclusion, but there are many people posting with no functional argument, a lack of use of logic, and are just trying to ram their belief by way of feeling (what's fair) down everyone's collective throats.

This should be handled in this manner; let us find all of the relevant text, analyze the crux points, and then simplify the matter and suggest some conclusions.

-"A LR can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted."
-"Therefore... a LR that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a crew stunned or crew shaken result can fire a single weapon." (This is a potential pivot point, since it may be either a conclusive list or a limited list of examples.)
-"Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire. (BRB58)"
-"1 Crew - Shaken... The vehicle may not shoot...(BRB61)"
-"2 Crew - Stunned... The vehicle may not more nor shoot...(BRB61)"
-"Smoke Launchers... The vehicle may not fire any of it's weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers...(BRB62)" (This is the second pivot point.)

I'm fairly certain that these are all of the relevant spots of text. This really boils down to two questions.
-Is the short list provided in the text of the codex contained Power of the Machine Spirit rule, which begins with "Therefore...", a conclusive list or is it a limited list of examples?
-Assuming that the PotMS list is a limited list of examples, is the text of 'Smoke Launchers' significantly different enough from the text of Cruising Speed, Crew - Shaken, and/or Crew - Stunned that it should be treated differently from those examples?

DK - The vehicle may not fire any of it's weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers =/= the vehicle may not use its smoke launchers in the same turn as it will fire any of its weapons, at least according to the commonly accepted rules of deductive logic, because this contingency obviously checks backwards, not forwards.

The OP can only be answered if the PotMS smoke and shoot debate has a conclusion.

Currently I'm forced, by logic, to answer the above questions, "It's a list of examples." and, "No, they are not significantly different."

You're entitled to your own opinion, RAW, RAI, whatever you like. As far as I'm concerned the RAW allows a LR to pop smoke and fire. As far as I'm concerned the RAI says that if a player spends 250+ points on a single vehicle, demi-god of war, that can be removed from play with one lucky shot, that ridiculously expensive vehicle/demi-god of war had better be able to rush onto the field at cruising speed, pop smoke, and fire one of its weapons all in the same freaking turn. And really, unless I know I'm rolling into an environment relatively short on AV14 breaking shooting weapons, I don't like Land Raiders very much; they're too fragile in this heavy anti-mech environment.

 

Quoted for truth!