[PILGRIMSHOST]

A mate of mine is building a large black templars army, while finishing another piece to add to it we were discussing what else he may need to include. Hes new to gw so referred to the front of his SM army box picture to get an idea- DEVASTATORS IT HAD TO BE.

The next week we were sitting in the 'war room' as he was proudly finishing his new additions while I read his codex. The Black templars had no mention of DEVASTATORS at all! I told him and he looked at me with an expression I would expect if I had told him that the Black templars had the military potency of a morris dancer.

QUESTION: Can Black templars have devastator squads?

 

[Firewolf]

>> If they aint in the codex, then they cant have them. Sorry man, your mate should read his shit. Apparantly, devs are to defensive for Templars, so cant be taken. Same wi Whirlwinds me thinks.

 

[torealis]

can they take them as non-BT allies?

 

[The Son of Horus]

Nope. Space Marine armies cannot take Space Marine allies. They can take units from Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Witchhunters, but they can't take inducted guardsmen or allied Space Marines as an army chosen from one of the two Inquisitorial books can.

The good news, however, is that the Black Templars are arguably one of the best in the game (hit on 3's in close combat... grumble...) and devastators don't really benefit from most of the special stuff the Templars have. Come to think of it, they'd actually be HURTING from it, since they run forward if they suffer a casualty. Better to focus all your points on assault type things, with meltaguns liberally distributed for your tank hunting needs.

 

[Cadian81st]

Aww man, that sucks. Buying a box of devs, only to find out you can't use them!

I suppose he could distrubute them throughout his tac squads as heavy weapons men, but even so...

 

[Firewolf]

>> Can they take heavies in crusader squads, or are crusader squads different? Dont know that much about Templars, but aint seen any squads wi hevies in them. Could be wrong, so dont quote me.

 

[Cadian81st]

If they can, and you haven't, it's probably cause of the charge rule.

I'll check my dex.

EDIT: Bear in mind this is what Codex: Armageddon says, but apparently BT squads can take heavy weapons. So maybe he can recycle his devs initiates?

 

[don_mondo]

If by Crusader squad you mean their standard Troop choice, yes, they can have a heavy weapon in it.

 

[Engelus]

yeah, its not very useful though, to have a heavy weapon in your crusader squad. mostly its better to have an assault weapon, like a meltagun or flamer, so you can fire on the move. because you will want to be on the move so you can duck behind cover during your long march to the enemy.

I would love it if an second power weapon could be taken instead of a heavy weapon.
I tend to use my crusader squads as chaplain delivery systems.

I seriously would not consider the Black Templars to be the greatest of the space marine codicies it has a lot of flaws, and some things that plain don't make sense.
examples:
1. the fluff says that templars take whirlwinds all the time, yet they are not in the codex
2. the image of the dreadnought in the fluff section clearly shows it with two CCW's, yet the Black Templars can't get a CC dreadnought (which makes no sense considering the theme of the army)
3. the emperors champion isn't quite as good as he could be. his stats are fine, but the black sword should be better than a +2 power weapon. It should be like the dread axe which worst to wound is 4+ and his 5+ invulnerable should be always.

my main regrets probably me only ever really playing against the Eldar, who seem to have at least 4 or 5 ways to counter anything I bring along. the assaultiest of the Astartes really should be better than whatever assault specialization unit the Eldar has.

 

[uberschveinen]

1. Where in the fluff? I've been playing Templars for longer than half of you have been playing, and I've never seen it.
2. Artists aren't exactly loremasters. Don't expect them to get it right all the time.
3. He's fine. The invulnerable is not important at range, because the Champion should be in a squad. The Dread Axe is garbage compared to the Black sword, which wounds most basic troops on 2+, and only Tyranid and Wraithlords are wounded on worse than 4+.

That's the way the Eldar work. They have a specific counter for everything. If they know what they're up against, they're hard to beat, and I'm guessing you play this guy enough rhat he can guess most of your army list. That said, they ARE better at assault. The best the Eldar have are the Harlequins, who are only meant for counterassault, the Scorpions, which were never meant for use against 3+, and the Banshees, who are screwed if you charge first.

You already can take a power weapon in place of the Heavy. In fact, that's the only way to get it. Sounds to me like you need to reread your codex.

 

[PILGRIMSHOST]

Thanks alot everybody, chears.

I knew you lot could cut to the core and solve this for me.

 

[Engelus]

I do re-read my codex all the time. but I have an evolving understanding of the rules, and a changing perspective of my own army within those rules.

1: well, I checked again, its on the inside back cover, although this probably shouldn't be considered fluff, and it shows that 50% of the fleets have them.

2: well, then its the artists fault for not getting it right then. I find it odd they put that in then, and didn't explain their unavailability

3: well, it always seems that the only thing he ever gets to go up against are avatars and Wraithlords. having a counter for everything is a distinct advantage, and is only mitigated by the player not having fought a given army before. no offense to eldar players.

and as for the power weapon, I meant instead of a flamer, plasma, or melta, for the ability to have 2 power weapons at once.

 

[Greyskullscrusade]

What I do in my BT army is:
take "fire Support" squads, little 5 man squads with heavy weapons. they are often overlooked by the enemy in favor of the massive crusader squad headed at them.
Ive been meaning to buy a devestator squad to distribute heavies, im getting tired of missle launchers.

 

[cccp]

What I do in my BT army is:
take "fire Support" squads, little 5 man squads with heavy weapons. they are often overlooked by the enemy in favor of the massive crusader squad headed at them.

yup, thats the way to do it. i try to have at least one shooty squad for every fighty one.

 

[The Son of Horus]

No need for having one shooty squad for every assault unit, particularly in a Black Templars army-- while I'm a huge advocate of tactical flexibility, bodies count for more than anything else in close combat, and oftentimes, shooting squads are best served as anti-tank units. You only really need one or two, and that's if you're shying away from things like Predators and Dreadnoughts armed with anti-tank weapons.

 

[PILGRIMSHOST]

Thanks everybody for your imput.

Just wondering, are ''fire support'' squads just a heavy support squad aka devastator squad?

 

[The Son of Horus]

No, it's more of a battlefield role than an actual selection. A fire support squad is any unit that you take (and in the case of a Black Templars army, this should read Crusader Squad) that you equip to fight at range while the majority of the army closes in for close combat. For example, you could have a five-man Crusader Squad of five Initiates, one of whom has a lascannon, and one of whom has a plasma rifle. They'll handle vehicles while your bigger Crusader Squads armed for close combat deal with the infantry. Basically, the job of a fire support squad is to eliminate threats to your main force. They're not there to win the day themselves, and they're not any specific unit-- it's all about what role you intend a unit to play.

 

[PILGRIMSHOST]

Would that mean they are basically a half tactical squad?

 

[Engelus]

Wouldn't a Techmarine with gun servitors make a better fire support squad?

Edit: a quick browse through the codex shows this as very expensive, but could be potent.

but you could get 3 fire support crusader squads for about the same proce, plus better armor and BS across the board, but still, if you absolutely positively must have 4 plasma cannons in one squad, thats the only way to do it.

 

[cccp]

Wouldn't a Techmarine with gun servitors make a better fire support squad?

Edit: a quick browse through the codex shows this as very expensive, but could be potent.

but you could get 3 fire support crusader squads for about the same proce, plus better armor and BS across the board, but still, if you absolutely positively must have 4 plasma cannons in one squad, thats the only way to do it.

i wouldnt take thet route really. 3 crusader squads which can fire at different targets are much better.