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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Marshal w. Artificer Armour, Iron Halo, Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Terminator Honours, Crusader Seals, Holy Orb of Antioch and Bionics. 172pts

Emperor’s Champion w. Armour of Faith, Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Terminator Honours, Crusader Seals and ‘Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds’. 140pts

Venerable Dreadnought w. Twin-linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher and Tank Hunter. 165pts

Dreadnought w. Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, Storm Bolter and Extra Amour. 110pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes. Initiates w. Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, 1 Power Fist and 1 Meltagun. Neophytes w. Carapace Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades. 246pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes. Initiates w. Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, 1 Power Fist and 1 Meltagun. Neophytes w. Carapace Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades. 246pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates w. Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, 1 Power Fist, and 1 Plasma Gun. Rhino w. Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade and Smoke Launchers. 244pts

Land Speeder w. Multi-Melta. 65pts

Predator Destructor w. Turret Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons and Extra Armour. 110pts

Total: 1,498pts

This is for my Pre-Heresy Word Bearers, using the Templar Codex as it suits the religious zealots to the ground I reckon. I've not played for years so any suggestions would be great!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
why give your marshal artificer armor, iron halo, and terminator honors when you could just give him terminator armor?
Honestly? Because I converted myself a model for a Master of Sanctity, then realised that with Accept Any Challenge on the Champion there was no point in taking him really as the Marshal's Rites of Battle would be more useful. Also though not sticking him in Terminator Armour means he can keep up with the squad he's in, he can perform Sweeping Advances and take advantage of frags too.
 

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Melta over flamer in the squads. Alot of meq heavy lists, and with AAC on the champ u wont really need to thin the horde before the marines kill everything.
I run my marshal iron halo, dual lightningclaws. I think frags r way over rated. Orb is nice though! 2+ armor is almost worthless because 9 out of 10 times it is ap1-2 any way, or a power weapon. People that know will be on the marshal, especially after he teares down a squad by himself.
Lightnig claws are my friends. Re-roll hit (AAC) & wounds (Dual LC) with power weapons is brutal.
 

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I'd go for AC/LC Preds for fire support. They don't cost much more than a Dakka Pred in a BT army, but they increase your potency against armor considerably.

I would highly recommend jumping into Rhinos to help you close sooner. Going on foot with big squads is also an option, it's your call.

If you stay on foot, I would also look into Terminators. 5 Termies with 2 ACs and Tank Hunters are quite effective against tanks.

The Marshal is awfully expensive, do BT even need that much help in HtH? I'd just stick with the EC.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the feedback guys.

The list was supposed to have been updated with those Flamers as Meltaguns, which I've done now. I think I'll drop the Artificer Armour on the Marshal as it seems like its pretty redundant, sure I can find somewhere else to sink those 20pts.

Marshal's in for the Ld 10 Rites of Battle, helps my footsloggers move forward all the quicker and I'll likely stick with the weapon loadout he's got currently as the model made and halfway through painting. When I purpose build a Marshal (current one is a repurposed Chaplain conversion) I'll give him Twin Lightning Claws for certain.

Alot of the list is based off of what I've already got and built, as when I started the army it wasn't for gaming, more the modelling side of things. I'd switch up to Lascannons on the Predator sponsons but I've not got the parts for them, and as I've used the older metal parts to make it I'd not be sure how to go about converting them up.
 

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I don't know anything about BT. I just wanted to say congrats on joining the Pre-Heresy club. Using the BT dex is a great idea for this venture. Good luck!
 

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Don't feel the need to list anything that's standard on the model - EVERYONE knows that Marines have Power armor and scouts/neophytes don't; but it makes the list harder to navigate with the block of text effect when only listing items XD. Plus, if you only list things you buy we have a better shot at catching any math problems, and saving you pnts is the best way to improve on a list.

1st:Drop all the frag grenades and Crusader seals you bought EXCEPT on the marshal. All you need is one single model in a group to get the effect of offensive grenades or Crusader seals, so buying them for the whole squad very literally does nothing. The EC comes with them, and Marshal comes with seals, so all you need to do is buy him grenades; just remember to attach them to the walking squads at the beginning!

2nd: a second land speeder w/MM and a Tri-las Pred will serve you better than the second Dread and the Pred in it's current form. I really don't think the 2nd dread will ever make it's points back, and a Dakka pred is a bit of a point sink - if you want mass removal, a Vindy will do SO much better, even though it has less range.

3rd: Holy orb of Antiach? Bionic? Dozer blade? Extra armor on the pred? Honestly, I don't see the point - all of these things could be dropped for even one moer marine on the table, and your effectiveness for the length of the game goes way way up. Remember, upgrades are generally costed poorly! You'll have a better chance with more models rather than paying out heavily for slightly better ones.

4th: Since you've only got two walking squads, may I reccomend a Chaplain over the marshal? The EC already gives Ld 10 to the squad he's with, and a Chaplain gets a 4++, comes with a pweapon, lets you RZela towards any enemy unit, and gives fearless all the time to the squad he's with. May be more effective with the sloggers than the marshal since he's really only adding LD 10 to the rhino squad.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I don't know anything about BT. I just wanted to say congrats on joining the Pre-Heresy club. Using the BT dex is a great idea for this venture. Good luck!
Thanks! Been working on Pre-Heresy armies on and off for a few years now, but this is the first time I've had the time and money to actually do it.

Don't feel the need to list anything that's standard on the model - EVERYONE knows that Marines have Power armor and scouts/neophytes don't; but it makes the list harder to navigate with the block of text effect when only listing items XD. Plus, if you only list things you buy we have a better shot at catching any math problems, and saving you pnts is the best way to improve on a list.

1st:Drop all the frag grenades and Crusader seals you bought EXCEPT on the marshal. All you need is one single model in a group to get the effect of offensive grenades or Crusader seals, so buying them for the whole squad very literally does nothing. The EC comes with them, and Marshal comes with seals, so all you need to do is buy him grenades; just remember to attach them to the walking squads at the beginning!

2nd: a second land speeder w/MM and a Tri-las Pred will serve you better than the second Dread and the Pred in it's current form. I really don't think the 2nd dread will ever make it's points back, and a Dakka pred is a bit of a point sink - if you want mass removal, a Vindy will do SO much better, even though it has less range.

3rd: Holy orb of Antiach? Bionic? Dozer blade? Extra armor on the pred? Honestly, I don't see the point - all of these things could be dropped for even one moer marine on the table, and your effectiveness for the length of the game goes way way up. Remember, upgrades are generally costed poorly! You'll have a better chance with more models rather than paying out heavily for slightly better ones.

4th: Since you've only got two walking squads, may I reccomend a Chaplain over the marshal? The EC already gives Ld 10 to the squad he's with, and a Chaplain gets a 4++, comes with a pweapon, lets you RZela towards any enemy unit, and gives fearless all the time to the squad he's with. May be more effective with the sloggers than the marshal since he's really only adding LD 10 to the rhino squad.
Thanks for the tips Saint7515.

I've been struggling between Marshal and Chaplain, but Chaplain makes more sense I suppose. People were recommending the Marshal for RoB, but as you say that's a waste really. If I can find another old metal Land Speeder I probably will go for a second one, but unfortunately Tri-Las are out for me as they're a no-go in PH.

I plan on adding in a Vindi for the expansion to 1,750, not sure what else to put in.

One quick question though, are Cenobyte Servitors worth it? I've got some models to represent them (Remembrancers rather than Servitors but more fitting for a PH army) and not sure if they're worthwhile.
 

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If you're really planning on taking the foot-sloggers to the next level, then the more wounds in a squad, the better! That said, Cenobites arn't worth it in anything BUT footsloggers as fodder for zealing. The more Initiates you can get to the lines, the better. The only reason you take sloggers over rhinos is, even though they're more expensive, a lot of people bring anti-light AV to the table, while they have a hard time dealing with a HORDE of marines. Plus, every wound that isn't taken off the squad gets attacks on the charge!

Honestly, if you're going fluff heavy, I can't help you as to what to add. HOWEVER, I have seen alot of Lists go far with foot-slogging, but you have to be dedicated to the approach. 2 squads of (Chaplain, 4 Servitors, 10 Initiates, 5+ Neophytes, and a fist and melta), PLUS another squad with the champ and a full group of 20 are almost needed to really keep hitting past the first charge AND survive vollies of fire. Then you have to consider fire-support. A Vindy and 2x fast attack choices of 2x models with MM are surprisingly good as problem solvers, especially if you can get a 4th troops squad chillin with a Rzbck in the background. Lots of Troops, lots of hitting power, lots of survivability, enough anti-tank for the biggest problems, and an orc's army worth of CC.

I haven't done the math on such a list in a while - I've been focusing down the LRC route lately...
 

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I don't know if your using the Righteous Zeal special rule since your not actually doing Black Templars, but if you are, having Cenobyte Servitors with a Chaplain may be somewhat advantageous for a foot slogging melee squad in that if you move a full 12'', get shot at and roll 6'' on your zeal move in any direction you want with the Chaplain near/in your squad, you can get up to another 3'' with the servitors (+1 for each) for a potential total of 21'' in a single turn. It'll help you get there faster, which is generally the idea of melee squads, which is part of the fun for BT. At least that's what I'm lead to believe, if I'm wrong someone please do tell me, haha.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It was iniatially the Horde O' Marines that drew me to using the Templar Codex, and the list you've proposed there is obviously perfect for that. Even better though it gives me an excuse to make a model for First Chaplain Erebus, and that's always good.

For the 2x2 MM would it be worth taking 2x Speeder and 2x Attack Bikes, or sticking to all the same type of thing with them?

Although there weren't really Razorbacks Pre-Heresy I'm sure I can come up with some sort of justification for taking one, they're too good not to really. What'd be the best way of kitting it and its squad out?

Quite happy to sideline the Predator Destructor at the moment for the Vindicator, it can come back when I've the points spare.
 

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Horde of marines works for templars, and can be really fun, if a bit of a hassle to field due to cost and time simply MOVING the models... but you also have to realize dealing with MC's can be a real hassle without much in the range of assault cannons to throw around. We still hold our own with melta's and fists, though...

I always prefer Attack bikes over speaders, but the truth is, they are nearly the same. Bikers, even though they suffer from instant death, simply seem to have an aura of higher survivability about them to me - 2 wounds @ T5 which can turbo boost (3++ basically the turn they move more than 18") vs. AV10 with 4++ moving 24". The bikes just seem to have better survival stats for the exact same points - and the models themselves are cheaper! However, if you've got the speeders, don't worry about mixing and matching. The real goal is to get some dedicated anti-AV13+ on the field, and they do just that! Plus, having such speed on those MM's makes them really forgiving in terms of battle-field conditions.

I like the TLLC raz-back with a 4x Bolter 1x Las squad. Simple, and gives you some longer-ranged possabilities. A little expensive for a squad, I know, but I think of it like a Tri-las pred (they never actually fire all 3 guns) for 40 pts more, but it's a Troops choice and lower priority to most opponents. Simple and effective, though pricey point wise for such effect.

And a solid choice for the Vindy - it can handle Hordes much better than the Des pred, and can handle armor somewhat better than the Annih Pred. Also, a great model to run up the field with your Hordes of marines for cover/assistance.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Right, rejigged the list somewhat to reflect your suggestions, this list is an 1,850 one. In a 1,500 I'd drop the third Crusader Horde and one of the Land Speeders most likely. Gone for a mix of Speeders and Bikes as I've got two Speeders, and would rather buy bikes than more Speeders.

Master of Sanctity w. Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, 3x Cenobyte Servitors. 142pts

Master of Sanctity w. Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, 3x Cenobyte Servitors. 142pts

Emperor’s Champion w. Accept Any Challenge. 140pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes, Power Fist and Meltagun. 285pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes, Power Fist and Meltagun. 285pts

Crusader Squad w. 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes, Power Fist and Meltagun. 285pts

Crusader Squad w. 6 Initiates, Lascannon. Razorback w. Twinlinked Lascannon. 165pts

Landspeeder Squadron, 2 Landspeeders w. Multi-melta. 130pts

Attack Bike Squadron, 2 Attack Bikes w. Multi-melta. 130pts

Vindicator. 125pts

Total: 1,829pts
 

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I'd say ditch the Vindy, Razor and Speeder for AC/LC Preds and more ABs. You're on foot, so any anti-tank guns are going after the few vehicles you put up. Razors, Vindies and Speeders are very vulnerable due to low armor and/or short range. Preds are cheap, fire from 48" and help your foot guys considerbly by slowing down mech and removing incoming firepower. More ABs are just for redundancy's sake.

Not a fan of the Chaplains either, tbh. Cenobytes are handy, but more marines are better.
 

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Razors, Vindies and Speeders are very vulnerable due to low armor and/or short range. Preds are cheap, fire from 48" and help your foot guys considerbly by slowing down mech and removing incoming firepower. [...]
Not a fan of the Chaplains either, tbh. Cenobytes are handy, but more marines are better.
uhh... Auto-cannon tanks? Over a Vindicator? WHAT? The Vindy has the EXACT same AV line as a pred... so survivability isn't an argument. And, talking effectiveness, a Vindicator does both anti-Tank and anti-horde better than an auto-cannon and las sponsons ever could... BTW, it costs exactly the same. The only downside is range; it ONLY has a 30" threat bubble for anti-tank and +2" for anti-bio. If 16" means that much, pay the 3 points for smoke and just roll it 12" the first turn.

The Razorback, while low on Armor, is hardly the only armored target, is easily moved out of sight if anti-tank is that big of a problem, and carry's a troops choice through your back-feild while popping TLLC shots. SOOO much better than 2x S7 AP4 shots. You drop an Auto-cannon to twin-link the Las cannon, trade 2 points of armor for carrying capacity, and it's 55 Points cheaper.

I agree that ABikes are better than speeders, but if you've got the Speeders already, then DON'T TRADE THEM! Real life $$ is hells-a-better than +9% survivability in a game this expensive to begin with.

Chaplains are awesome. Fearless all the time, not just in combat, basically gives Seals and Grenades to an entire squad, and lets you Zeal in practically any direction... BTW, they come with a Pweapon, a 4++, and allow you to field Marine squads with 26 Wounds. 26!

I haven't foot-slogged in forever, but looking this list over is inspiring! 79 wounds on the table with a 4+ or better, 4x Fast MM, and a vindy. BTW, they're all leadership 10, have preffered enemy, if you shoot them they're moving 4"-6" closer to your best threat on YOUR turn, and over 2/3rds are fearless. I don't own this many neophytes or servitors, but I am proxying this one up in the near future if I can find an opponent willing.
 

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Vindies have a low threat range, so once they get into range side armor shots are much easier. AV11 is not very tough. Cover really reduces the impact of their shooting, that and with scatter they can have a difficult time popping armor. You also run the risk of blowing up your own units.

Preds, on the other hand, fire from 48" away, avoiding the majority of AT weapons and keeping their AV13 for longer. They are more focused on suppressing/disabling/destroying enemy mech to make life easier on your footsloggers. It's not always about what's the killiest, you have to see what works within your list.

Razors are fragile, especially if there's not a lot of armor rolling around. I'd like 'em with the Predators more than anything, but it ends up taking focus away from the foot marines.

Chaplains are decent, but expensive. If anything I'd rather have a dual LC marshal for Ld10 and a greatly improved CC presence.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
For me the Vindicator is the better choice, my regular opponents run footslogging Death Guard, Deathwing and Grey Knights meaning that 10 2 shot is better for me than an AC/LC Pred.

The Speeders are going nowhere, they've taken some getting and so are in the army come Hell or high water.

Glad to have rekindled your zeal Saint7515. When I first picked Templars I knew I wanted a Horde so I have enough Neophytes to build, but not sure what to do for my second Chaplain's Servitors. I'm trying to avoid actualy Servitor models as I want them to represent Remembrancers. This is a Great Crusade army after all!
 
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