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Hola people.

just a real fast question.

When absorbing magical dice for the Black Coach am i forced to do it? Or is it optional?

Cheers for anyone who leaves a response!
 

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The FAQ says you must absorb dice.

But there is a really complicated a beardy rule which means the Black Coach doesn't really work at all.

Aramoro
 

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Aranoro, to quote the late Desi Arnaz:"You got some splainin' to do!"
 

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Ok you asked for it.

Basically

The magic phase starts, anything which triggers 'At the start of the Magic Phase' happens. This includes Rolling for the Winds of Magic. So Evocation of Death and Rolling for the Winds of Magic happen simultaneously. Luckily there are rules for this in the sequencing box out on page 10. Basically the active player chooses the order. So you opponent can choose to resolve Evocation of Death before Rolling for the Winds of Magic meaning Evocation does nothing.

Aramoro
 

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I see. Your original description was generous.
 

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That argument is flawed though.

From the BRB, page 30, "He takes a number of dice equal to the winds of magic roll and makes up a 'pool' of power dice to represent this reservoir of power." This directly implies that a pool of power dice is not generated until the roll for the winds of magic is made, hence there must be dice in the pool to roll.

The black coach's text says "Roll the dice in the power dice pool". Hence, you cannot say that the black coach's effect occurs before the pool is created as it states you must roll the pool's power dice, and the pool does not exist pre-winds of magic. Therefore the two events do not occur simultaneously and you do not use the sequencing rule.
 

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Oh noes he goes for it but stumbles into a trap.

There is no need for the magic pool to exisit for this rule to happen, if there is a magic pool it will suck dice from it. If there isn't the rule will fizzle. Both rules are compulsary and both have the same timing point so squencing kicks in.

Aramoro
 

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Hmm yea I can't think right now of a concrete way to disprove that :( On a side note, I noticed you're using a black coach in your forumhammer game, and I was wondering if you would use the above logic in your game against you, or if you're simply making the case for the opposition in this thread?
 

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In all honesty I would not expect anyone to play the Black Coach that way as it becomes and expensive trinket doing that.

It's obvious how it is supposed to work and I would be very unimpressed with anyone who tried to say Black Coach does nothing. But I could see how it could be ruled that way in a tourney.

Aramoro
 

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The black coach is one of the better 'chariots' availiable in wfb before it starts upgrading itself mid-battle.

I would only expect to see a Coach in an Army that's forsaking raising more soldiers and focusing on fighting.

Bloodknight Deathstars, grave guard and Ghouls would be all in this force. As the vampire player couldn't keep a high amount of power dice to keep casting spells. Sacrificial necromancers would probably feature, all stood within 6" of the coach until it was ready to really cause damage.
The coach would also be a good addition to a force that's preparing to fight a magic heavy army. As the coach also absorbs their power dice too. And with the new focus on magic/magic prevention, I think the coach finally has the time to shine, maybe having all it's upgrades by the end of the second players turn 2.

Leaving you with a particually strong chariot with a 3+/4++, that now flys, is ethereal, causes instant death, has +1 impact hit, hates all enemies and has MR3.

So yeh, only use one if you are giving up your magic phase in place for combat. As a black coach and a couple of balefire Corpse carts will really hamper an opposing armies magic phase without you actively trying to dispel.
 

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Oh noes he goes for it but stumbles into a trap.

There is no need for the magic pool to exisit for this rule to happen, if there is a magic pool it will suck dice from it. If there isn't the rule will fizzle. Both rules are compulsary and both have the same timing point so squencing kicks in.

Aramoro
While I can see some a-hole at a tourney arguing this point, I wouldn't discount Traitor's logic. After all, the Sequencing rules also say, "When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first..."

The wording of Evocation of Death refers to there being a power pool, and I would argue that that is explicit enough wording to resolve the power pool being generated before EoD.
 

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if you try to argue this now then you would of had to argue this in all former editions as the only thing that has changed is that there is a centeralised pool that is random in size
 

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if you try to argue this now then you would of had to argue this in all former editions as the only thing that has changed is that there is a centeralised pool that is random in size
And that changes anything how? The argument is valid with the rules as they are printed now.

Aramoro
 

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Sure its a perfectly valid way to read the rules... its also OTT rules lawyering for most players to accept: remember that the guiding principle in the game is that its played for fun (although not a golden rule like in 40k it is still there on the first few pages, albeit in the margin).

Keeping good-will from any opponent is always important though, even in tournies... and I would suggest that using exact RAW to break what is pretty obvious RAI is just not worth it.
Why do you need good-will? Well thats an easy one- in friendly games they guy may well just not play you again (hell thats the least that I would do if someone tried to pull this rubbish on me). In tourny play I could see that you are in a better position then me and suddenly take 5mins to think about and move each unit... forcing the game to run out of time before anything important happens while in a more friendly atmosphere I would accept I was being beaten and rush through (if time was short) to make sure the game gets to a decisise finish or reaches the end.
 

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Aramoro's clear breakdown of how you could if you wanted to be hated is a great example of why this forum is really helpful; imagine how you would feel if you first encountered the argument in the semi-final of a tournament.

Assuming you can choose which rule is resolved first in your turn, when you are opposing VC then you will obviously choose to resolve the coach before you roll for power &c. However, as the Coach gains from absorbing dice, a more interesting question is whether the decision is always clear for a VC player.
 

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It's mearly a curiosity of the rules. Some Vampire Counts players were using it to say in their turn the Black Coach doesn't absorb their Power Dice. But failed to see that the obverse is also true. Rules Lawyering at it's best.

Aramoro
 

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Rules lawyering is fun as an intellectual exercise. I always get a giggle when I can find some blatantly silly twisting of the rules (i.e.: nowhere does it say that Giants cannot fly).
But trying to implement them in a game is beyond obnoxious.
 

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it changes things because you have never rolled for a pool so i see this as somehting of a pre magic phase although it says it no where in the brb i see it like this did you try argue this point in any other edition when the dice just appeared if not why there had to be a point when they appeared but because your now rolling for them the black coach cannot take them possibly if it's your opponents turn
 
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