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Discussion Starter #1
So reading False Gods recently I notice something that made NO SENSE to me at all.

When Sindemann and Keeler were attack by the Horror, she banish it with the Big Es divin power. However the Big E with all this Divin power granted to his followers has very little clue whats going on in the Galaxy. Hell Eldrad saw what would happen with the HH where Emperor could not. Yet this power that Keeler wields in the Emperors name had impact on the Daemon. WTF kinda crappy writing is that? Any thoughts on his Godhood and Emps lack of knowledge of his own powers?
 

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I think any discussion on the degree of the Emperor's sentience or awareness would ultimately amount to a fistful of interpretations.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Why are you so sure it was the Emperor's power she was utilising? :)

A widely used counter to this issue is the assumption that Keeler was some type of latent Psyker, and that her faith somehow manifested her own abilities. That, or her unshakeable faith bent the Warp to do her bidding (or what her faith dictated).
 

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How do you know that he is not fully aware of what is going on and does not let onto it? I've said in other threads that I don't think that the Emperor's motives have ever been clear.
 

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I think that Emperor knew (at least to some degree) of Horus's treachery, but he just couldn't force himself to believe that his favorite son, along with others, could betray him.

Concerning his "divine power", as you put it - there are many possible explanations. Maybe you have misunderstood the situation a bit - it's not like Emperor himself granted her the power, it was more probable that she simply discovered "faith" or her own psychic powers. In 40k, half of the Imperium has the ability to banish daemons (for example, Inquisition) and the Emperor doesn't give them power since he is barely alive. Instead, they have blessed weapons and whatnot to do the job.
 

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It`s just faith. Daemons cannot stand faith, they prey on fear and unease, etc.

The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance. But he does act as a figure head for their beliefs and their faith. Grey knights are especially good at this as they are also psykers, which if anything would only enhance the effect.

It doesn`t work against everything however. Hold an aquila pendant up in front of a daemon and it recoils in disgust.
But just try it on a tyranid or necron.:laugh:
 

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I'd posit that there are many ways in which prescience/omniscience have been depicted in science fiction... and not all of them indicate that the individual with this power necessarily has control over what happens.

Consider Paul Atreides, from the "Dune" series, or Cassandra, from "The Iliad". Both were clearly prescient, but were unable to alter the will of the gods/destiny. In Cassandra's case, the gods even made other people ignore her warnings. Perhaps the Emperor knows, but is powerless to avoid the events happening, even as he struggles to counter them?.

Consider Dr. Manhattan, from "The Watchmen" for an even more dramatic effect: his is the experience of past, present and future, simultaneously, to include a psychological detachment from the impact of an event until it happens. Perhaps the Emperor, sum of all of Terra's ancient shamans, has such an inhuman perspective that he fights on even though he instinctively knows that he cannot win?

There are a number of reasons the Emperor may or may not know about events taking place, or may or may not be able to act on his knowledge.
 

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Quite true. In the inheritance series the dragons are described as having unlimited power, but no control over their ability to use it. How much would that suck?

Can`t definitely say, but I don`t think that this is what happened in this scenario however... I still think it was faith that banished the daemon.
 

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Bane of Empires
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The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance.
While that sounds logical, its still an assumption. The Emperor's conversation with Jaq Draco seems to suggest that the Emperor has somehow split his consciousness in order so that he can focus his attention on seperate events. In some cases part of himself is completely unaware of what other parts of himself are doing.

So while I will generally agree with you, its still plausable (if unlikely) that he may literally protect the entire species in every circumstance.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Why are you so sure it was the Emperor's power she was utilising? :)

A widely used counter to this issue is the assumption that Keeler was some type of latent Psyker, and that her faith somehow manifested her own abilities. That, or her unshakeable faith bent the Warp to do her bidding (or what her faith dictated).
Thats my Favorite Answere right there. I can buy that.

It`s just faith. Daemons cannot stand faith, they prey on fear and unease, etc.

The Emperor himself does not literally protect the entirety of humanity in every circumstance. But he does act as a figure head for their beliefs and their faith. Grey knights are especially good at this as they are also psykers, which if anything would only enhance the effect.

It doesn`t work against everything however. Hold an aquila pendant up in front of a daemon and it recoils in disgust.
But just try it on a tyranid or necron.:laugh:
Thats possible too.

While that sounds logical, its still an assumption. The Emperor's conversation with Jaq Draco seems to suggest that the Emperor has somehow split his consciousness in order so that he can focus his attention on seperate events. In some cases part of himself is completely unaware of what other parts of himself are doing.

So while I will generally agree with you, its still plausable (if unlikely) that he may literally protect the entire species in every circumstance.
Thats a good one also, the Emperor is Senile :taunt: I can sleep better at night now.
 

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There are no Gods in 40k , not the emporror or the chaos entitiies called gods. Since even they are just emergent consciousness of trillions of fragmented consciousnesses. In other words those individuals may who preform miracles like banishing Daemons are not so much using the power of the emperor, as making themselves similar enough to certain pockets of psychic energies, in order to draw on the power of a fragment of the warp that is completely made up of humanities positive elements (After all contless billions have dead completely in the service of the emperium) . In other words the emperor would not even necessarily even been involved directly, since Sindemann and Keeler may have actually been drawing on latent imperial psychic energy in the warp.

All of this is connected to my interpretation of the metaphysics of the warp. After all Parils, and the dangerous they pose are from daemons attacking the entity drawing on some of their psychic essence. However if you are drawing on a section of the warp made up of almost identical psychic energy, then their is no threat of this. That's why sisters of battles miracles, and Daemonic Gifts don't require psychic tests.
 

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There are no Gods in 40k
That statement is equally true as it is false.

The truth is, the term 'god' in 40k is utterly and completely ambiguous, some entities are worshipped by countless billions and wield power to make them for all intents and purposes gods, but others would disagree with this classification regardless.

As Horus says in the opening Trilogy of the Heresy series, it doesn't matter if you call such entities gods, super xenos, or intelligences - it doesn't change the facts.
 

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There are no Gods in 40k , not the emporror or the chaos entitiies called gods. Since even they are just emergent consciousness of trillions of fragmented consciousnesses.
40K itself doesn't have a consistent definition of "god," but that doesn't mean they don't fit conventional definitions. For example:

god [god]
n (plural gods)
1. supernatural being: one of a group of supernatural male beings in some religions, each of which is worshiped as the personification or controller of some aspect of the universe

The chaos powers fit that bill almost perfectly. To say that they aren't gods is silly. They are immortal. They are ageless. They have supernatural abilities that defy our understanding of reality. They live in separate planes of existence, a spiritual realm. They are ethereal. They grant "boons" to mortals. They are objects of worship. They represent concepts. They do practically everything gods have been expected to do throughout history. 40K's definition of gods may be ambiguous, but considering they fit the modern definition of gods, and are called gods within the series, I think it's rather silly to not accept them as such.
 

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40K itself doesn't have a consistent definition of "god," but that doesn't mean they don't fit conventional definitions. For example:

god [god]
n (plural gods)
1. supernatural being: one of a group of supernatural male beings in some religions, each of which is worshiped as the personification or controller of some aspect of the universe

The chaos powers fit that bill almost perfectly. To say that they aren't gods is silly. They are immortal. They are ageless. They have supernatural abilities that defy our understanding of reality. They live in separate planes of existence, a spiritual realm. They are ethereal. They grant "boons" to mortals. They are objects of worship. They represent concepts. They do practically everything gods have been expected to do throughout history. 40K's definition of gods may be ambiguous, but considering they fit the modern definition of gods, and are called gods within the series, I think it's rather silly to not accept them as such.
second :eek:k:
 

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Ambiguous in that their existence can be explained. They are the product of mortal psyche and their power is contained within that role.

Ageless and immortal, yes. Worshipped and invincible yes. But because I consider a god to be all powerful. Because their power is limited, I cannot consider them true gods in accordance with my personal definition.

By that logic, neither can the emperor, hivemind, c`tan or any other entity be considered a true all powerful god.

Stuff like this is up to personal definition and opinion. I don`t think it`s right to call it as silly for someone to see something differently.
 

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But like in reality there is polytheism where the gods are not all knowing all endgame beings. They are the aspects of a singular power split into multiple personalities. Think of the "gods" of 40k as one power not their own separate endgame version of god
 

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Like I said, opinion. I can see where you`re coming from.

The greek gods were described as higher beings, but could die and be killed just like humans, subject to their own character flaws and emotional strengths and weaknesses. I don`t know how educated you ar on the topic but I would not regard them as gods either. Personally, I use the word deity to describe them and such because it is a less ambiguous word.

And the deities in polytheism do not seem to fit the immortality argument you posted on another thread, Baltar. Why the backflip?
 
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