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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Being new to SM, and only have used Inquistors as Psykers, what is the best discipline to choose from? Do you always go for the same one or should you try and get lucky and pull powers from multiple ones? Any advice would be great!

Thanks!
 

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You need to ask yourself what you want from it. Depending on how your list is built and what role you plan to have your libby play will influence the choice.
 

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Well... depending on your army build, I think the best two are divination and biomancy. Divination allows shots to rend on enemy targets and you to re-roll 'to hit'. Biomancy can seriously enhance your survivability with FnP, but it's more chancy than Divination due to the primaris being... well... mediocre. I play my GK Librarian with Divination and my guard primaris psykers with biomancy and Div respectively to make the most of these powers.
 

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Rattlehead
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Telepathy has Invisibility, which is quite possibly the best power in the entire game right now, and Shrouding/Terrify are also hugely powerful, albeit more situationally. Biomancy has Enfeeble and Endurance, which are amazing. Divination is still pretty good, but not the undisputed king like it was in 6th - I'm also not sure whether regular Space Marines can bring it.
 

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Regular SM can't take Divination, and I'm kind of shocked to see no one repping Pyromancy.

Flame Breath (Primaris): Heavy Flamer with Soul Blaze

Firey Form: Psyker gains 4++ (something I wish they had naturally), CC attacks get Soul Blaze, re-rolls failed to-wound from further Pyromancy powers this turn (great for ML2)

Fire Shield: toss out a 4+ cover save within 24" (can be yourself, as per Blessings), enemies within 6" of that unit treat all terrain including open ground as Dangerous Terrain (great for units about to get mauled in CC)

Spontaneous Combustion: 18: range, target model suffers S6 AP3 hit with Soul Blaze. If model is slain from this, place a blast marker around it and everything under the template gets a S5 AP4 hit with Ignores Cover and Soul Blaze (fun for closely packed units- potentially just forced out of a transport or in cover).

Sunburst: 9" Assault 2D6 bolter with Ignores Cover and Soul Blaze. Luck of the dice, but great for a lone psyker to shoot like a full squad before assaulting.

Inferno: 24" S4 AP5 Assault 1, Large Blast, Soul Blaze.

Molten Beam: Melta Gun

Am I way off or does anyone else see the awesomeness that is this table?
 

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Rattlehead
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Flame Breath (Primaris): Heavy Flamer with Soul Blaze
I'll bring Sternguard with Heavy Flamers and Combi-Flamers, thanks.

Firey Form: Psyker gains 4++ (something I wish they had naturally), CC attacks get Soul Blaze, re-rolls failed to-wound from further Pyromancy powers this turn (great for ML2)
Librarians are bad in combat, so blah. If you could plan around getting it, maybe. Feels like it should be the Primaris.

Fire Shield: toss out a 4+ cover save within 24" (can be yourself, as per Blessings), enemies within 6" of that unit treat all terrain including open ground as Dangerous Terrain (great for units about to get mauled in CC)
Cover isn't hard to get naturally. Dangerous Terrain is meaningless in 7th as it allows Armour Saves.

Spontaneous Combustion: 18: range, target model suffers S6 AP3 hit with Soul Blaze. If model is slain from this, place a blast marker around it and everything under the template gets a S5 AP4 hit with Ignores Cover and Soul Blaze (fun for closely packed units- potentially just forced out of a transport or in cover).
Pretty neat, but essentially being WC2 makes me wonder if there are any good targets for it. Nothing you can't already do better with the rest of your army.

Sunburst: 9" Assault 2D6 bolter with Ignores Cover and Soul Blaze. Luck of the dice, but great for a lone psyker to shoot like a full squad before assaulting.
Yeah, it's like Dragonfire Bolts but worse.

Inferno: 24" S4 AP5 Assault 1, Large Blast, Soul Blaze.
If it ignored cover, then maybe. As it is, no. There's a reason nobody brings Whirlwinds, and they're better than this.

Molten Beam: Melta Gun
Actually pretty good since you don't lose strength.

It's a bunch of shooting powers in an army that can already shoot. Pyromancy isn't unusable, and if it was all you had it would be entirely workable, but since you can bring 6" bubbles of +2 Cover or You Can't Hurt This Unit Any More or FnP 4+/IWND/EW with the other disciplines, there's nothing in Pyromancy that's really that good. Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards - your psykers should be buffers, because they're pretty inefficient damage dealers if that's all they do.
 

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Good to see the other side of it Midnight, while I'm not quite as disparaging toward it as you I see your points. Personally,

I'll bring Sternguard with Heavy Flamers and Combi-Flamers, thanks.
I'd rather take Meltas over Flamers, but that's a play style choice I suppose. Plus it's kinda unfair to compare a full unit to one model in terms of capability.

Librarians are bad in combat, so blah. If you could plan around getting it, maybe. Feels like it should be the Primaris.
I agree with the Primaris comment, but this is a buff to how bad they can be in combat. Some of them could be a lot better with it.

Cover isn't hard to get naturally. Dangerous Terrain is meaningless in 7th as it allows Armour Saves.
Dangerous terrain means a -2 modifier and dangerous terrain tests for units charging, not meaningless at all if you're in Open Ground.

Pretty neat, but essentially being WC2 makes me wonder if there are any good targets for it. Nothing you can't already do better with the rest of your army.
Definitely not my favourite power, and at WC2 it's even more suspect. S6 AP3 can be useful against MCs though, if it ever comes up.

Yeah, it's like Dragonfire Bolts but worse.
He doesn't get Dragonfire bolts he (typically) has a pistol, and this is more effective than a pistol. Still, I do agree that it ain't anything to write home about due to variability in dice.

If it ignored cover, then maybe. As it is, no. There's a reason nobody brings Whirlwinds, and they're better than this.
Definitely has Ignores Cover, typo on my behalf. Not that I don't agree partially, but this is again a hell of a lot better than a pistol or combi-weapon attack and doesn't cost points. I wouldn't be disappointed I don't think.

Actually pretty good since you don't lose strength.
Who doesn't like a free Melta Gun, right? :laugh: Curious though, what do you mean by 'lose strength'?

your psykers should be buffers, because they're pretty inefficient damage dealers if that's all they do
I'd be curious to hear your opinions on the Furioso Librarian assessment I've come up with in this thread. Since losing the BA powers I'm somewhat at a loss of how to treat lone psykers like the Libbynaught and Mephiston, and they don't have access to Pyromancy which I am now thinking is really meant for lone psykers with CC potential over psykers attached to squads.
 

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Rattlehead
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I'd rather take Meltas over Flamers, but that's a play style choice I suppose. Plus it's kinda unfair to compare a full unit to one model in terms of capability.
Okay, a Sternguard with Heavy Flamer. It's not as bad as Smite or anything, but it's just not particularly impressive. I'd rather have Prescience or Psychic Shriek any day.

I agree with the Primaris comment, but this is a buff to how bad they can be in combat. Some of them could be a lot better with it.
But still bad. What are the chances you're actually going to cast this and turn a drawn or lost combat into a win? Marines are bad at combat. Casting spells to make you slightly less bad doesn't seem terribly productive when you could spend the points on shooting better or taking more objectives.

Dangerous terrain means a -2 modifier and dangerous terrain tests for units charging, not meaningless at all if you're in Open Ground.
Huh, I thought Dangerous was completely seperate to Difficult. Haven't got my rulebook on me, but if that's true, then it's much better than I gave it credit for.

Definitely not my favourite power, and at WC2 it's even more suspect. S6 AP3 can be useful against MCs though, if it ever comes up.
But not as useful as a Plasma Gun, and this highlights the problem with Pyromancy - it's generally quite expensive to bring a Psyker compared to a dude with a gun, so the Psyker really needs to be bringing something you can't bring with a guy with a gun.

He doesn't get Dragonfire bolts he (typically) has a pistol, and this is more effective than a pistol. Still, I do agree that it ain't anything to write home about due to variability in dice.
But Sternguard are cheaper than a Librarian - individually, I mean. Legion of the Damned and Sternguard both bring this rule on reasonably efficient platforms, so I don't know why you'd want a Librarian doing it as well.

Definitely has Ignores Cover, typo on my behalf. Not that I don't agree partially, but this is again a hell of a lot better than a pistol or combi-weapon attack and doesn't cost points. I wouldn't be disappointed I don't think.
Much better then, especially if you can land it on Concealed Guardians behind an Aegis or something.

But again, Thunderfire Cannons will be way more efficient.

Who doesn't like a free Melta Gun, right? :laugh: Curious though, what do you mean by 'lose strength'?
Beams used to lose Strength as they hit dudes. New Molten Beam just keeps on rolling through people.

I'd be curious to hear your opinions on the Furioso Librarian assessment I've come up with in this thread. Since losing the BA powers I'm somewhat at a loss of how to treat lone psykers like the Libbynaught and Mephiston, and they don't have access to Pyromancy which I am now thinking is really meant for lone psykers with CC potential over psykers attached to squads.
Mephiston is fairly worthless - Jump Infantry movement was easily the scariest thing about him, but he's waaaay too easy to avoid now. Furioso Librarians could have mileage, probably as a buff machine on Divination trying to push through Misfortune against Wraithknights/Riptides or Prescience/Forewarning your dudes. Are they AV13? I think so, in which case using them as natty support casters would be a pretty decent use for them.
 

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Okay, a Sternguard with Heavy Flamer. It's not as bad as Smite or anything, but it's just not particularly impressive. I'd rather have Prescience or Psychic Shriek any day.
Makes a lot more sense.

But still bad. What are the chances you're actually going to cast this and turn a drawn or lost combat into a win?
It could also be because you're staring down a bit too much high AP weaponry, but I see your point.

Huh, I thought Dangerous was completely seperate to Difficult.
First line of Charging Through Dangerous Terrain:

In addition to the penalties for charging through difficult terrain, if any model in a
charging unit goes through dangerous terrain, that model must immediately take a
Dangerous Terrain test.
But not as useful as a Plasma Gun, and this highlights the problem with Pyromancy - it's generally quite expensive to bring a Psyker compared to a dude with a gun, so the Psyker really needs to be bringing something you can't bring with a guy with a gun.
Like with the Sternguard comparison, I see your point.

But Sternguard are cheaper than a Librarian - individually, I mean.
I don't play Sternguard or LotD, but I still get what you're saying.

Much better then, especially if you can land it on Concealed Guardians behind an Aegis or something.

But again, Thunderfire Cannons will be way more efficient.
Again, I don't play TFCs. Starting to see why I like this table?

Beams used to lose Strength as they hit dudes. New Molten Beam just keeps on rolling through people.
Didn't know that, glad it's changed!

Mephiston is fairly worthless
Rumour has it he may be moved to the Lord of War slot in the new codex. Taking a fuck ton of salt on that, but damn it'd be cool to get a re-sculpt of him and new rules...but yeah, agreed.

Furioso Librarians could have mileage, probably as a buff machine on Divination trying to push through Misfortune against Wraithknights/Riptides or Prescience/Forewarning your dudes. Are they AV13?
ML2, AV13 psykers. I'll give Divination another run through, though I have been liking Biomancy for my BA psykers recently. I won't distract this thread more with stuff not pertaining to the SM codex though, I have a thread for my Libbynaught woes.
 

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The downfall of this table versus another (as i see it) is that for it to be usable, you need to be close - bolter range ideally. That means that you have drop podded or rhino'd your psyker up and he is in the face of the enemy as an adjunct to a tac squad or sternguard - and you probably have one turn to try and maximise his benefits to the squad before i paste you across the nearest shrine or wall witg my battlecannons or thousand sons. nothing personal, but i'll happily take 2-3 MEq kill points. So, one turn of life, at best one unit destroyed, i don't think best reflects what this psyker can do for survivability and potency of said squads.

On the other hand, this power on a terminator librarian in a squad of assaults or termicide team could really increase the damage output.

Situationally good, i guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well I went with telepathy and it went great, all the way to the 1k tournament finals...and then I rolled perils two turns in a row, with the 2nd time rolling a 11 on my leadership and my squad with running away with the relic was sucked into the warp with the closest squad left being tied up in combat with Typhus. At least I won best sportsman :) Thanks again for all the help!
 

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Telepathy is the best discipline by some distance in my opinion, for space marines anyway. Invisibility is bloody ridiculously good, as Midnight said, probably the best power in the game.Psychic shriek is also an excellent power to have as the primaris, especially for taking down monstrous creatures or units who have lost their sergeant/ exach etc. Wounds that dont allow armour or cover saves are crazily good, especially since you don't even need to roll to wound, the only downside is the fairly short range. The only power that isnt that great is Hallucination, for two warp charges especially, because the results just don't warrant using 4 or 5 dice to try and cast it. All the other telepathy powers have very good uses in an army, regardless of build.
 

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Rattlehead
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Telepathy is the best discipline by some distance in my opinion, for space marines anyway. Invisibility is bloody ridiculously good, as Midnight said, probably the best power in the game.Psychic shriek is also an excellent power to have as the primaris, especially for taking down monstrous creatures or units who have lost their sergeant/ exach etc. Wounds that dont allow armour or cover saves are crazily good, especially since you don't even need to roll to wound, the only downside is the fairly short range. The only power that isnt that great is Hallucination, for two warp charges especially, because the results just don't warrant using 4 or 5 dice to try and cast it. All the other telepathy powers have very good uses in an army, regardless of build.
Eh, I think that Mental Fortitude and Dominate are pretty worthless, generally speaking (Dominate is probably better than I give it credit for; going through a real WFB phase at the moment so I automatically assume everything is Ld8+ with re-rolls!). Terrify is situational, not as good as it was before. Hallucinations is a lot worse - most of the things you'll target with it don't care about a single Pinning check, and don't care about some Str3 hits on the character. The stat decrease is the only good result on the table.

Having said that, Invisibility and Shrouding make the whole discipline worth rolling on just for those, as well as having a solid Primaris.

I'm selling up my 3500pts Dark Angels army, so I'll likely never get to experiment, but I was hoping to try out Divination a bit more in 7th - it still seems fairly strong, with Misfortune being a great counter to Wraithknights and less specifically Riptides. Ignores Cover is, as ever, really good. The Overwatch one and Scrier's Gaze are both pretty poor, but the rest of the discipline kinda makes up for it.

I'm just going to have to use the Ork powers and stomp people rather than try anything subtle or interesting :so_happy:
 

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Eh, I think that Mental Fortitude and Dominate are pretty worthless, generally speaking (Dominate is probably better than I give it credit for; going through a real WFB phase at the moment so I automatically assume everything is Ld8+ with re-rolls!). Terrify is situational, not as good as it was before. Hallucinations is a lot worse - most of the things you'll target with it don't care about a single Pinning check, and don't care about some Str3 hits on the character. The stat decrease is the only good result on the table.

Having said that, Invisibility and Shrouding make the whole discipline worth rolling on just for those, as well as having a solid Primaris.

I'm selling up my 3500pts Dark Angels army, so I'll likely never get to experiment, but I was hoping to try out Divination a bit more in 7th - it still seems fairly strong, with Misfortune being a great counter to Wraithknights and less specifically Riptides. Ignores Cover is, as ever, really good. The Overwatch one and Scrier's Gaze are both pretty poor, but the rest of the discipline kinda makes up for it.

I'm just going to have to use the Ork powers and stomp people rather than try anything subtle or interesting :so_happy:
Well, from a power armoured perspective, you're probably right, mental fortitude and dominate aren't that great. Mental fortitude won't do anything for SM, but in other non-marine armies it's a pretty useful power to have. Being able to stop that unit from fleeing off the table can be the difference between victory and defeat, so I think it's being a little underrated. I quite like dominate, since it's going to be three ld tests per turn, there's a solid chance one will be failed, inhibiting their ability to either advance on objectives or kill your dudes. I like it as an option

I do love divination, as a SW player, since the primaris power is just so delicious. Ignoring cover, Rending and a 4+ invul are all very useful powers too. I suppose which discipline you prefer really comes down to what you like your psykers to do for you.
 

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I would like to know your opinion on Biomancy, I have had some great success with it personally. Once I perilled and got the 'I'm a demon prince' ability, AND cast Warp Speed, I destroyed half a squad of Chaos Bikers, needless to say I was happy.:grin:

Smite, a much better boltgun, capable of killing off a good portion of a Termie squad.

Iron Arm and Warp Speed are great for when your unit of Sternguard with a Libby gets charged, most my enemies try to.

Enfeeble is WONDERFUL, I've twice now instakilled a warlord w/ T5 just because he was enfeebled, also makes your squad not so terrible at CC.

Endurance (I stick on a squad of Vanguard Veterans to make them VERY hard to kill) it increases anything's survivability by almost 50% (since it's 4+ FNP).

Hemmorage, it's OK, not great, unless you drop this on an enfeebled group of Eldar :O (mass damage)!

Finally Life Drain (whatever it's called, I don't have the book with me) it's ok, nice when you just got perilled, cuz you can regain that wound, or if you run your libby out to save your chapter master when he's up to his neck in the enemies of the imperium.

I'm not saying it's the best, but it fits the 'fluff' of my army, and I've had great success because anything your roll for (I run lvl 2 libby) can always help with your army. Not like the 'Fearless' power on my entire 'ATSKNF' army.
 

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Rattlehead
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Smite, a much better boltgun, capable of killing off a good portion of a Termie squad.
It's a damage power that's not squad-destroying powerful, and therefore I don't like it since Psykers pay a lot of points for being able to be crazy buff-machines. Most psykers are very inefficient damage-dealers.

Iron Arm and Warp Speed are great for when your unit of Sternguard with a Libby gets charged, most my enemies try to.
I usually find that people will just isolate an Iron Arm'd dude and avoid him, or they're swinging high Strength things like Power Klaws anyway. Not awful, but definitely limited by the Librarian not being particularly good in the first place (T7 with 3+ and no Invulnerable isn't exactly hard to bring down, and Str9 with a Stave makes you very punchy indeed but two WS5 attacks isn't going to rock the world anytime soon).

Enfeeble is WONDERFUL, I've twice now instakilled a warlord w/ T5 just because he was enfeebled, also makes your squad not so terrible at CC.
Enfeeble is amazingly good, yes. Better buffing Tacticals than Sternguard, who can just Hellfire away anyway, but really nice for doubling out people with a Thunderfire, or piling on the damage with small arms.

Endurance (I stick on a squad of Vanguard Veterans to make them VERY hard to kill) it increases anything's survivability by almost 50% (since it's 4+ FNP).
Really, really good, although better on Terminators/Centurions than on basic Power Armour. Handing out Relentless is pretty great too.

Hemmorage, it's OK, not great, unless you drop this on an enfeebled group of Eldar :O (mass damage)!
Even then, not killing many.

Finally Life Drain (whatever it's called, I don't have the book with me) it's ok, nice when you just got perilled, cuz you can regain that wound, or if you run your libby out to save your chapter master when he's up to his neck in the enemies of the imperium.
Haven't had a chance to use it, but I can see it being really nice as Renewer from Runes of Battle, but with a fairly reasonable damage effect tacked on. Better if there was a real monster you could use it on, but not half bad with a Chapter Master kicking around.

I think that Enfeeble and Endurance are incredibly powerful, but Life Leech, Haemorrhage, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and Smite are all situational at best. Biomancy feels like a discipline that would be *really really good* if you could plan around getting the powers. As it is, you need more than a few psykers to ensure that your super-unit gets their Endurance or you can Enfeeble the enemy's scaries. Opposed to Telepathy, which has the god-like Invisibility, Shrouding, and Terrify as well as a much stronger Witchfire as a Primaris and some other situationally useful powers like Mental Fortitude and Dominate, or Divination, which has a great Primaris and most of the powers being useful to any given army, I think Biomancy falls behind a little.
 
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