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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At my local GW store today we were discussing the strong focus on ranged combat in 40k and I was thinking back to when melee was king and it got us thinking what armies now adays are effective close combat forces, effect to the point they can compete with the strongly shooting focused armies. I was wondering which ones do you think are worth trying, I don't mean omg must own type armies but ones who you an have fun with but at the same time not full down dead in waves. That if there are any armies like that nowdays (close combat is rare in my store)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Have to say it's probably the Adepticon-winning list (and runner-up!): Tzeentchi Daemons FMC spam with a handful of CSM allied in. Fateweaver, LOC/DPs (one with Grimoire), possibly a Bastion or Mace Prince, Heldrake. Minimal scoring units.
 

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Rattlehead
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Orks sneak into the top bands at tournaments semi-frequently, although more using combat as a tool once the Shoota Boyz have rolled their bucket of dice than combat as the main element. Apart from that, probably Daemons with a Flying Circus, Tyranids with their FMCs and general combat capability, and perhaps Space Wolves on the defense.
 

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Daemons, no contest. Even the shootiest daemon lists feature dangerous CC units. Orks and Tyranids don't even come close, as they are primarily shooty armies. At least if they are trying to be somewhat competitive. AFAIK, Daemons are the only army that can go all CC, and still be, not just competitive, but also one of the best armies around.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Dark Eldar... I think since 6e came out and forbids assaulting the turn you enter play, that really nerfed DE melee lists like the warp portal and such. You're so fragile you cannot afford to soak up the guaranteed turn of shooting that the enemy player is going to get.

Nids--oooh, with the Skyblight formation, Nids have really gotten scary again. Potentially endless squads of Gargoyles that cannot be contested on objectives; up to three Flyrants and half a dozen other FMCs. But then, I guess most of the time those Flyrants and FMCs are going to be vector striking (at S8 then flaming, with Crones) or shooting t-l deathspitters or whatnot. Still more htan capable of knocking heads in melee, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It seems to me the only way to do melee lists now is to just have FMC creatures in some shape or form. That's such a shame, I'd much prefer seeing units disembark from vehicles and get to chopping.
 

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Pretty much any tyranid or ork list will do decently in cc, but the above mentioned ones will excel.

Dark Eldar can still work, just you're relying on boats now instead of warp portals.

Surprised to see no mention of Grey Knights, considering what they can do to monsters and multi wound models once (if) they hit home.

I've toyed with a necron cc list, take enough canopteks and you will pack a punch. I wouldn't put it on par with nids or orks though.

Others, like tau, guard and meq are probably as effective as they've always been provided you can adapt your tactics to the no assault from reserves rule.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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It seems to me the only way to do melee lists now is to just have FMC creatures in some shape or form. That's such a shame, I'd much prefer seeing units disembark from vehicles and get to chopping.
You are accurate. Why?

- Vehicles are pants, generally and especially in melee. Any vehicle (less Knights) can be destroyed with one moderately lucky hit by a solid AT weapon. Additionally, melee Walkers tend to be low Initiative, so get trumped by S10 Smash hits from MCs (who tend to be high Initiative). On the other hand, Monstrous Creatures are T5-8, so almost always immune to ID, and have to have their wounds chipped down one at a time. Imagine if vehicles couldn't get Exploded, but rather always had to be stripped every Hull Point. I imagine you'd see rather more 4HP, high AV Land Raiders and Soul Grinders fielded...

(hell, even making it so that a damage table result of 7 rather than 6 is necessary for an Explodes result--aka you need AP2 or AP1 to get the result, and AP1 doesn't get it 50% of the time, would help make vehicles useful again. I wouldn't endorse taking away the ability for vehicles to Explode unless we want the parking lots of 5e again, but Explodes on a 7... hmmm)

-Anything on the ground is moving too slowly for combat. Monstrous Creatures, Infantry, whatever. Beasts and Cavalry and Jump Infantry and Bikes fudge this, but tend to be so costly or FA slots that they can't be fielded in sufficient numbers to reliably make it across the field. Flesh Hounds are the largest exception here--Scouts AND Beasts? Multi-wound models for dirt cheap that can be fielded in massive blocks? Yes please!

- FMC durability. Making 90% of an enemy army Snap Shots against you (as long as you pass Grounding Checks--all the more reason to take Fateweaver) gives you some seriously cash money survivability.

In sum: against FMCs, enemies get one turn of snapping shots before you are in combat, and they have the toolkit to take out vehicles, as well as not having the Achilles heel of vehicles. THAT is what it takes to beat a shooting army in close combat, 6e.
 

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@Mossy Toes
I humbly disagree. While it is true MC points must be stripped to 0, it is on the other hand much easier then for vehicles, because even the basic weapons can take them down. I am talking about T6 MC not T8, but I don't think a T8 flying MC exists. Sure if you need 6 to hit it's a bit inconvenient, but if you saturate it properly it will fall on the ground and once in there, that's basically it. Vehicles on the other hand can't be saturated by low S shots and need at least S6 or S7 to be brought down.
Sure vehicles can be disabled with one lucky shot, but what matters here are the averages. I haven't done any detailed analysis of that, but intuitively my guess would be that vehicles don't fair that bad compared to MC, unless they of course have low (10 or 11) armor in which case it's clear which one is better.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I humbly disagree. While it is true MC points must be stripped to 0, it is on the other hand much easier then for vehicles, because even the basic weapons can take them down. I am talking about T6 MC not T8, but I don't think a T8 flying MC exists. Sure if you need 6 to hit it's a bit inconvenient, but if you saturate it properly it will fall on the ground and once in there, that's basically it. Vehicles on the other hand can't be saturated by low S shots and need at least S6 or S7 to be brought down.
Sure vehicles can be disabled with one lucky shot, but what matters here are the averages. I haven't done any detailed analysis of that, but intuitively my guess would be that vehicles don't fair that bad compared to MC, unless they of course have low (10 or 11) armor in which case it's clear which one is better.
I was kinda talking about MCs in general when I said "up to T8"--aka a Wraithknight--but in that context, yeah, I really didn't make it clear. But a T8 wraithknight only being wounded by plasma on 5s, or a Riptide's 2+ save shrugging off all but the lowest AP weapons with impunity... those are tough barriers to overcome in close combat or at range.

My experience playing for the past two years has overwhelmingly been that MCs are more valuable than tanks. Let's say that a tank and an MC are about as durable as each other--the MC will still trump a tank nearly every time a tank vs MC duel goes down. Blame the Smash rule, if you like. It's hard to crunch the numbers, definitely--this sort of general blanket statement is definitely too ambiguous for straight-up Mathhammer.

And who knows, with Guard (sorry, Militarum) we'll probably see artillery-spam and armor-spam lists coming back in force. For a while, at least.
 

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Dark Eldar seems to be the only army I can reliably get into CQC, though I never relied on Deep Strike or reinforcements for that anyway. Small 5 man squads of Wyches and Incubi (I know, the latter aren't the most cost effective, this is for normal games) in 9 Venoms and two large Wych squads in boats.

The only thing I use webway portals for these days are Talos, which I don't use that often.

That said, people around here tend to like close combat too, and are equally trying to get into fisticuffs. So only a few guys around here have shooty armies with enough shooty bits to stop me, and they don't usually do so, at least not the majority of the time (SM/ Eldar)
 

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Rattlehead
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My Orks always get into combat. Every game.

How many get into combat is another matter.

I think that Knights and Guard mean Meltas are going to make at least a minor comeback.
 

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Daemons are the obvious answer because the ruleset blatently favors fmc.

they're swooping....but the model is behind that building so you can't shoot them.

they're in the air, but their toe is in area terrain so they get a cover save.

they can dive and still assault.

They have a 360 firing arc + vectors.

Unlike vehicles, their efficiency isn't diminished when taking fire. They're still 100% effective on their last wound.

Speaking for daemons, the ability to get IWND, fnp, iron arm, etc greatly increases their survivability in comparison to other mcs in the game. (Speaking of, an iron arm dp can reach t8.)

Until they're toned down a little, it's hard to argue a better cc unit.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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they're in the air, but their toe is in area terrain so they get a cover save.
I keep forgetting this too. Hell, I've probably been playing differently with my roommates. Shit. And with, say, a Nurgle Daemon Prince... ugh.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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That's be of the biggest reasons to use nurgle over the others....is the built in shrouded!
That and with a lucky mix of greater gifts he can become one of the most evil daemon princes out there; AP2, Fleshbane, Instant Death.

You'd have to be REALLY lucky on your rolls though, but it IS possible!
 

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Because it's illogical. Don't beat yourself up for thinking realistically.


I don't find this to be illogical at all. Have you ever seen an eagle or other large bird flying through a forest? And I'm talking flying FAST. It's insane that they don't hit anything but... they don't. What's to stop a naturally flying born creature from swooping 5 feet off the ground through trees, ruins, etc?

A Wraithknight with his toe in tall grass however... That better be some damn tall grass.
 
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