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Discussion Starter #1
I'm putting a unit of 15 Black Guard into my next army (2000 points) and was thinking of taking a magic banner for them (not bsb so max 50 points). Enemies will be wood elves, warriors of chaos, or skaven. Banner of Hag Graef is out: Black Guard are faster than anyone short of high elves anyway. Dread Banner is only 10 less than the wailing banner, so no reason to take fear when terror is an option. Banner of murder would be good against WoK, but unnecessary against skaven or wood elves. Anyone have advice?
 

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Not exactly on the banner subject, but 15 in a 2k game is a little small, if your running them that small you may just want the Warbanner for some res, or with your higher movement meaning your most likely getting the charge anyways, the standard of slaughter. I would run the banner of murder because even skaven can get some armour, and no banner would make you more or less effective vs WE really.
 

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Banner of Hag Graef. ASF is the way BG should ALWAYS role.

If you Deathstar Blackguard like I do, you want to take 19 of them.

Dread lord with Crimson Death, armour of Darkness and Ring of Darkness.
Master w/ Heavy armour, Sea dragon cloak and BSB Hydra banner.
19 BG w/ FC including Ring of hotek and Banner of Hag graef.
2 Hydras running down either side.

This gives you a unit that has:
5 Str6 attacks with Hatred and ASF.
4 Str4 attacks with Hatred and ASF.
11 Str4 attacks with Hatred and ASF.
-Any double on casting dice against the unit is a miscast.
-Enemies shooting at the unit half their BS.
-Enemies in combat with the Dreadlord half their WS.

Hydras fuck the flanks of attacking units.

That'll kill off any unit stupid enough to charge them/be charged by them.

And as Deathstars go, the BG one is pretty cheap. Easily fieldable in a 2k battle. Hell, I do. And I still have a unit of CoKs, 2 units of Crossbowmen and 2 units of spearmen, a unit of harpies and a sorceress.
 

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Sorry, but ASF has pretty much lost its role now, except against those pussy High Elves, and we have Repeater Crossbows for that. Honestly though, the above combination can work well, if you replace the BoHG with the Banner of Murder, and replace the Master with something else, in my preference a Sorceress with the Lore of Death on a Dark Pegasus with the Pendant of Khaeleth. Death is pretty much the best answer for Dark Elves against big units of dudes right now because, A) You can snipe out characters supporting the unit with their leadership or Battle-standard. B) You can reduce their leadership by 3. In fact, you don't even really have to have both of these to start breaking big blocks. Just one should be enough. :)
 

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i agree although i am loath to do it i take asf banner on a bsb in a unit of executioners sigh back to the point armour piercing or +1 movement
Note that the ASF banner can actually be of benefit to Cold One Knights. They have a large enough points allowance to get it without a BSB, and with their high initiative, they'll always have rerolls to hit then. Adds some long term reliability to them, which they would have to have to be viable anymore.
 

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Mahavira,

Banners on BG are now as the above posts describe not as cut and dried as they once were.(my opinion, I think the abilities of opponents to bog them down has increased so much we will see over time the deathstar fade as tactics and army books are released and developed) The last thing you want happening to such a unit is it to be bogged down by a Mammoth style unit that will remain steadfast. (That said the BG unit can take punishment if its 5x4)

BG could use several banners depending on how your going to use them. (I will certainly be changing banners and mixing it up till I have found good combinations for points at 2k, 2.5k and 3k-1.)
But think of some basic points to make the choice for you..... such as.....

1). What is the BG unit doing?

Is it now a flanker for you to crash into the side of a ranked up unit while your spears act as the anvil?

Is it to threaten the flanks or are you going to use it as a tar pit?

Is it to hold a particular character and hide them and give some protection?

Your choices for BG could and should note the following;

You already have a decent I with BG. You should be striking first most of the time anyway. If your unsure what your facing ASF is still a decent choice. But its not a must have as before.

COK as Masked Jak has stated if your running them still really do benefit from the ASF banner as well.

Lastly, the one thing that will benefit BG a heap, is the Cauldron of Blood. Safely sitting behind a unit of BG or at least within range, it adds massive bonuses. Don't get too scared of the warmachine factor against it. You should have several nice targets for any cannon to be looking for, and you should have dedicated warmachine hunters anyway. We have both shades and DR or even a Peg to do that fast enough.

Let us know what you pick and how they work out for you.
 

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Lastly, the one thing that will benefit BG a heap, is the Cauldron of Blood. Safely sitting behind a unit of BG or at least within range, it adds massive bonuses. Don't get too scared of the warmachine factor against it. You should have several nice targets for any cannon to be looking for, and you should have dedicated warmachine hunters anyway. We have both shades and DR or even a Peg to do that fast enough. .
In addition, the Cauldron is practically an auto-take, benefiting just about any unit with the blessings you can give, it makes smaller Khainite units viable by giving them stubborn, and it's even more resistant to cannons than you might think. 2 cannonshots to wound, 4 to get through the ward save, and 8 to be guaranteed enough wounds to kill it. If the Cauldron soaks up 8 cannon shots, just think about all the Hydras and squishy infantry that are getting to your enemy's lines intact. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, tried the Banner of Murder and discovered it didn't matter at all: the unit took a direct hit from a Skaven Doom Rocket reducing it from 15 to champion, standard bearer, and musician. They then massacared a unit of skaven slaves, and were run over by a doom wheel. I think I'll have to try again to get a fair judgement...
 

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Well, if your opponent had to send a Doom Wheel after you after taking a direct hit from the rockets you probably had a lot more free then to do damage of your own.... (I hope).

FB is a strange game at times. I often sacrafice a unit or two that appears juicy so that other stuff can get to where it has to be. 15BG is an expensive Forlorn Hope style unit though. If you find that your opponent is aiming at them all the time.... great..... just kill him with something else that we have that is just as good at killing;

20 corsairs with SSS banner and a COB hurt a lot too.... just people dont go oooooooohhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhh naughty! like they do with us when they see BG or x2 Hyrdras..... Very strange how people view DE. (An empire player can take 3 cannon and 2 mortar and nobody blinks an eye.... but the DE player who takes x2 Hydras.... your cheesy!) Experiment a bit mate, until a few new army books come out, it will take some time to get yourself familiar with the new game. I don't think anyone can legitimately say they have mastered 8th edition yet, we are yet to see a new Army Book which will again change how we look at things.... give it 3 months.... wait till a new TK or something is out and everyone screams outrageous! then take 2 hydras and warstomp those slaves to death! :) Good hunting)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Kind of a wierd battle - watchtower scenario, I was defending. My margin of victory was quite literally 1 model: my corsair champion, last survivor of the corsair unit was on the flank of the screaming bell horde, and closer to the ruins of the watchtower than anyone else (guess who got promoted to hero). Real lesson of the day: just because your general is wiht your cold one knights doesn't mean you won't fail stupidity checks 2 times in the first 3 turns. Anyway, thanks all for the advice, I'll see if I can't rack up a few more notches in my W column.
 

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I am in an enviroment the includes some Vampire, lots of Warriors, some daemons, and some high elves. The ASF banner is essential in such an environment. The death hag with ASF gets killed too easily in the first round of combat outside of the cauldron (like in a unit of execs). One cannot assume superior initiative against high elves and really have to eliminate the high elf re-roll to hit benefit with the ASF banner. The high initiatives of vampires and lords also makes this banner essential. For example, against Daemons, I used ASF to get the drop on and kill an already wounded bloodthirster that hit my flank (used champ in challenge to limit the casualties with whip and it did one wound on turn one; and then two black guard with +1 attacks from cauldron finished it off). Also, the BG unit is often the stubborn tarpit that has a character (even BSB master) in it (especially against a steadfast unit in skaven that will take more than one turn to reduce). The ASF banner plus initiative gives that character a re-roll to hit after round 1 that can be critical to its survival, especially when facing high i opposing characters.
 

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well the high elves won't re roll to hit unless they are a higher initative which against another elf army is unlikely and you will go at the same time as chaos
 

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well the high elves won't re roll to hit unless they are a higher initative which against another elf army is unlikely and you will go at the same time as chaos
It's *equal* or higher initiative. Would've made more sense for it just to be higher initiative, but, there you go.
 
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