[melsaphim]

Morning Heresy, having made my decision after the last discussion to work on a small Dark Elf force i have well and truly been bitten by the GW bug hard once again. I have a small 40k force of a converted nurgley lord and 3 squads of 7 marines to convert into nurgley plague marines and my conversion of the DE Cauldron of Blood is now moving into the final stages of painting (with the rest of the models for the army starting to trickle in around Christmas)

But i'm never one to settle for two things when i can have many many more (much to the distress of my wallet and girlfriend) :laugh: and so i'm here with another topic of discussion for the wonderful fountain of knowledge that is Heresy, you guys helped a lot with the discussion on the pros/cons of HE and DE so hopefully we can get another good discussion going here.

This time i am curious as to what you believe to be the greatest army for magical devastation and or dominance, with reasons as to why this is so. I'm looking to create an army that truly annihilates in the magic phase with as many spells going off as i can field in the points limit. I know this may not be competitive but it will sure as hell be fun.

I'm looking for help on which army has the best magic users and why? including magic items available and special rules. Who has the best lore's of magic available to them? what spells truly dominate the field not just in damage output but maybe in control or buff/debuff aswell?

Look forward to hearing from you all with your opinions and ideas, feel free to include comments on special characters but i am aiming for basing this army without the use of them in the end.

Cheers
Liam

 

[Azezel]

It's always going to be a toss-up between High Elves and Lizardmen.

Lizardmen bet all their marbles on a big ugly from who has Loremaster and adds an extra die to every cast. No doubt about it, that's some heay magical firepower.

High Elves Will generally bring a Banner granting +d3 Power dice/turn and an Arcane Item which takes an enemy Power Die and turns it into a Dispel Die, they also have a 10 point item to grant an additional spell.


Both Lizzies and Helfs have access to all eight Lores from the core book, but High Elves also have their own Lore. High Magic isn't that great, but its spells are super-cheap in eighth edition, so you'll cast more per turn.

Unlike Lizards, high Elf Hero casters also have access to their full nine Lores. Lizard hero casters get Heavens only.

Lizards have solid anti-misscast protection, High Elves have only limited protection if they burn an Arcane slot for it.

Lizards can have Loremaster, High Elves can take an item which lets you chose spells instead of rolling.


Both are very strong in the magic phase, but in different ways. Lizards have the edge in raw power, High Elves in finesse.


Unless you count Teclis. When the big T is on the table all bets are off. Loremaster, any Lore, immune to one miscast/phase, every double of any kind is irresistable without miscast ad he can permanantly remove an enemy spell from play.

 

[kavyanshrike]

Or if you want an army which relies on magic to stay alive try tomb kings and vampire counts as magic keeps the army alive stuff like the casket of souls is funny to use

 

[Words_of_Truth]

Does anyone know how good Chaos Dwarfs are at magic?

 

[melsaphim]

It's always going to be a toss-up between High Elves and Lizardmen.

Lizardmen bet all their marbles on a big ugly from who has Loremaster and adds an extra die to every cast. No doubt about it, that's some heay magical firepower.

High Elves Will generally bring a Banner granting +d3 Power dice/turn and an Arcane Item which takes an enemy Power Die and turns it into a Dispel Die, they also have a 10 point item to grant an additional spell.


Both Lizzies and Helfs have access to all eight Lores from the core book, but High Elves also have their own Lore. High Magic isn't that great, but its spells are super-cheap in eighth edition, so you'll cast more per turn.

Unlike Lizards, high Elf Hero casters also have access to their full nine Lores. Lizard hero casters get Heavens only.

Lizards have solid anti-misscast protection, High Elves have only limited protection if they burn an Arcane slot for it.

Lizards can have Loremaster, High Elves can take an item which lets you chose spells instead of rolling.


Both are very strong in the magic phase, but in different ways. Lizards have the edge in raw power, High Elves in finesse.


Unless you count Teclis. When the big T is on the table all bets are off. Loremaster, any Lore, immune to one miscast/phase, every double of any kind is irresistable without miscast ad he can permanantly remove an enemy spell from play.

Can Lizardmen only have the one Slaan? i don't have the lizard book so i can't check up on that one myself. I'm simply trying to make a list with as many magic users in as possible. So if only 1 Slaan the rest would have to be skink priests. although can't a priest be on the engine of the gods? does this effect the magic phase in any way/shape or form?

As for HE i know from playing them before a few times that their magic can be effective, but i'm wanting to avoid teclis and focus mainly on the army as a whole in magic rather than special chars and magic

Or if you want an army which relies on magic to stay alive try tomb kings and vampire counts as magic keeps the army alive stuff like the casket of souls is funny to use

What are the TK and VC lores like? as i know they both have their own respectively but i have no idea how they work or how good they are.

Does anyone know how good Chaos Dwarfs are at magic?

I'm afraid all i know about Chaos dwarves is how good their artillery is :laugh: sorry to not be of any help there but if anyone does know i'd be quite interested in that one too

 

[Vaz]

Chaos dwarves have IMHO best Hex in the game (ash storm), and it rates up there with Okkams Razor and Purple Sun. However with only the Lord capable to take it, it is a bit limited in availability.

Lizards; dual Slann (life and light/shadow) is awesome.



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[Azezel]

Can Lizardmen only have the one Slaan? i don't have the lizard book so i can't check up on that one myself. I'm simply trying to make a list with as many magic users in as possible. So if only 1 Slaan the rest would have to be skink priests. although can't a priest be on the engine of the gods? does this effect the magic phase in any way/shape or form?

Lizards can have two Slann, but there are limits on duplicate Disciplines.

No matter though, if you just want to cast a ton of spells every round you want Greenskins. They have (correct me if I'm wrong) the cheapest casters in the game, and they can generate extra Power Dice and that's what you need if your definition of of dominating the magic phase is having a lot of spells and dice.

Empire would also be good, cheap wizards and Priests with bound spells.

 

[Masked Jackal]

Dark Elves absolutely dominate at higher point levels because of Power of Darkness. Multiple wizards, even with the 2d6 power dice, can end up pumping out pretty obscene numbers of spells if you simply save your last few dice for Power of Darkness, and Sacrifical Dagger as well as cheap Dark spells can bring out a lot of pain. At more normal point levels though, I'll agree with the Lizardmen, even over High Elves, but mostly because I consider Teclis to not exist. *Shuns away everyone who uses him*

 

[kavyanshrike]

The tomb kings lores are for mostly healing and improving your troops but the tomb kings magical units are a lot better with stuff like the casket of souls and they can gain additional power dice through the casket and the hierotitan

I have never used the vampire counts but from what I have seen from friends using them you can create new units through magic meaning you can constantly replenish your army.

The problem with both of these armies is that for the tomb kings if your kill the hierophant (your highest level magic user) or for vampires your main vampire your army begins to crumble and die.

Also another good army for magic may be daemons with teen tech daemons been able to have any lore and lore master

 

[DivineEdge]

High elves, dark elves, and lizardmen have the best magic. Greenskins have cheap casters but only two crappy lores. Don't do them for magic dominance. Kings and counts need magic to be competitive.
Lizards just need one slann. No need for too many skinks, they have only one lore and won't get many die.
Dark elves have the only magic phase that scales with points cost and gets exponentially better with reach wizard you take - power of darkness and sax dagger are why. Plus they get good lores with the exception of fire and darkness.
High elves are more suited to magical defense unless you take the book or teclis.

You already have druchii so I'd say stick with them.

 

[Vaz]

The Tomb Kings magic phase; all these power dice and nothing worthwile to cast.

VC; the most useful lore regarding balance of the army. It is integral to making the army play at its best, but doesn't hamper if you don't take more than a L1 Blender Fighty Lord or L4 Master of the Dead Necrolord.

Divine Edge; Crappy lores? damn, if OnG were actually better at doing anything, then their Little Waagh would be among the more powerful lores in the game.



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[DivineEdge]

It's not terrible. The little wagh is much more nuanced then some other lores, but I'd take shadow, death, life, or even some WoC/DoC lores over it. Skaven spells are better, and I could make a case for the elf lores too. The poisoned attacks and armour piercing are pretty lame to me. The fix it spell is just like curse of the midnight wind (or some spell from heavens). Night shroud is situational at best and vindictive glare just sucks. Itchy nusiance is pretty good, and bad moon can be, but you have a 50% chance of casting the big one on 6 die with a level 4. Mushrooms can help, but your mage is about to blow himself up then.

Magic phases are integral to undead, but in all honesty, the tomb kings only have a few semi-decent buffs. Nothing else is IMO worth casting.

 

[Tim/Steve]

Personally I love OnG mage: orcs magic sucks mainly because its all direct damage and so doesn't work when in combat (not sure which genius thought that up) but little waargh is pretty awesome. Itchy nuisance is one of the best spells in the game (you do NOT want to be striking after a hoard of savage orcs) and combined with higher level bad moon (or just a lucky little moon) it'll destroy whole armies.
Best of all you should just shove a cheap lv1 night goblin onto the side of each and every unit of orcs: you get a few extra channels for cheap and have sneaky stabbin all over the place. Its nice for armour piercing but if you happen to flank its devastating.


But if we are going for magical dominance there's only 3 races in it: DE, HE and lizards. Lizards certainly have the best defence of the 3 and they are pretty strong but I think they are out done by banner of sorcery/jewel of dusk HE or spammed Lv1-2 DE: getting +2-4 power dice a turn is nasty but then being able to throw 1 dice at power of darkness off 2-3 throwaway mages to help power-up an uber sorceress can also be devastating.
... as to which is actually strongest, I don't really know, but allow Teclis and the debate ends rather quickly...

 

[Vaz]

Yup. Gobbo magic mainly.

Sneaky Stealing Attribute; free power dice? Works better with trickle casting which works for Wood Elves and Vampires; not so much Dweller/Pit/Sun bombs.

Sneaky Stabbing; Armour Piercing and Rerolls to hit and wound in the flank? One dicing to get armour piercing is good enough, anything extra just makes enemies even more careful not to expose a flank. Imagine this on any sort of med strength (4-5) unit with decent movement. One dicing as well just to get additional Power Dice? Definately

Vindictive Glare; we know Magic Missiles are shit. So lets give it low casting cost. Wait; 5+? That is worth one dicing definately. Again, just worth casting to get the additional dice, but 7-10.5 s3 hits is not much to sniff at against Elves etc.

Gift of the Spider God; Name one any unit which would not appreciate an 8+ (!) spell to get Poisoned attacks, or a buff to existing poison.

Itchy Nusiance; Another cheap spell; battlefield control, and I1? What is not to love?

Gork'll fix it; 8+ to become near enough immune to a units poison/killing blow while effectively giving all units targetting it Armour Piercing?

Night Shroud; Dangerous Terrain with a 24" bubble, throwing in -1 to enemy BS? Yes please. Curse of Anraheir is a 10+ spell and only affects one.

Curse; This synergises with Shadow/Death so well it is unreal. If you have both Dwellers/Pit/Sun you can roll decently, and have a good chance of getting off 2'nukes in a turn.



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[melsaphim]

Thanks again to all who have posted so far on this topic, this is once more turning into an invaluable source of information and ideas.

To everyone who has said DE for a variety of reasons i am planning on including a lot of magic potential in my DE army but also a reasonable amount of killy killy CC character build so for this 'magic' army i'm really wanting to focus away from DE, not to discredit your comments or their value as this is at heart still a discussion of the best army for magic dominance in fantasy not a 'whats best out of these armies' kind of list without DE in it.

On the topic of Lizardmen if i take two slaan i am assuming they are lord options allowing me to use my heroes on skink priests? I am almost completely certain this army i make will include nothing but magic casting/using characters nothing else so all chars must use magic hence why i would want the heroes to be skink priests if i use any.

With this in mind what would be the best army to saturate the field with magic caster characters and nothing else. What army can field the highest ratio of magic users in their list so to speak. and could an army of pure magic Characters and then units to support those characters work for that matter?

 

[Vaz]

If you take Dual Slann, there won't be many points left in the pot after taking a ton of Chameleon Skinks, Salamanders and Saurus. Under dual Slann with shadow; try a Skink Cohort with Mindrazor; s6 attacks are still nasty as hell (you still get Javelins as well), and it can force the opponent onto your Saurus Blocks in time for a Dwellers/Pit of Shades.



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[Tim/Steve]

Thought of that... but unfortunately mindrazor specifies close combat attacks. So no S6 javs for skinks :cray:

 

[Vaz]

Sorry forgot to say that; but even so Javelins can get their fair share of kills.



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[Azezel]

With this in mind what would be the best army to saturate the field with magic caster characters and nothing else. What army can field the highest ratio of magic users in their list so to speak. and could an army of pure magic Characters and then units to support those characters work for that matter?

There are only two armies which can do this without gimping yourself.

Non undead armies need a BSB. Trying to play 8ed without a BSB is taking a deliberate handicap.

Lizardmen and high elves have this covered.

Slann can act as both general and BSB for Lizardmen.

High elves need a Noble as BSB, but for 45 points you can give him the Radient Gem of Hoeth to make him a Wizard. He's a pretty damned good fighter/mage too with heavy armour, and an ASF Great Weapon.

(You can also give the Gem to a Prince which is pretty damned brutal).

High elves can also have Dragon Mages (Hero level Fire Mage riding a dragon) and mount Archmages on Dragons. Not really a good idea, but they can do it.

You could even have a dragon-riding prince with the gem to make him a wizard and a hero-level Dragonmage.

 

[Words_of_Truth]

What's the worse magical race, aside from those who don't have it?