[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

I keep hearing people say that Berserkers + Plague Marines are the ultimate combo for CSM, but I've been wondering about something...

Possessed are only 5 more points each, have the same number of attacks, 1 more Strength, an inv save, have the other Marks available to them, and the special rule that makes Berserkers nice, Furious Charge, is arguably the second worst option on the Possessed Ability Table--and just in case they don't get it and you really want that Initiative bonus they'd lack, you can just give them Mark of Slaanesh.

While I understand Berserkers being troops makes them better in objective-holding games, my friends and I only rarely do that, we usually just set up and kill each other. With that in mind, Possessed actually seem like a better option for the tactical role of Berserkers. Is there something important I'm missing by thinking this?

 

[Katie Drake]

Possessed don't have frag grenades. This is really, really bad for a dedicated assault unit (and let's be honest... that's what they are. They don't even have bolt pistols). Getting the crap kicked out of you because you had to take a difficult terrain test really sucks, especially since it's so easy for the enemy to make you do.

 

[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

Aahhh ok, gotchya. Thanks again!

 

[LukeValantine]

....Berzerkers ftw!

 

[Primarch Lorgar]

hands down zerkers! possesed too unpredictable, they could do the exact opposite of what you want!:biggrin:

 

[safeinacell]

Also, Possessed do not get the option to put a power fist on a the champion, or get Krak or Melta grenades, so a Dread is going to thrash them. Added to this they only count as having 1 hand weapon, were as Bezerkers get pistols and hand weapons, giving them three attacks as standard. Using an Elites slot on Possessed starts to look a lot less reasonable when compared to the other choices you can get for the close to the same, or even less points.

 

[dedredhed]

Ive always heard that khorne beserkers in a rhino/land raider are beastly:dunno:

 

[mcmuffin]

Berzerkers in a land raider with kharn will mutilate anything short of TH/SS termies, posessed wont.

 

[IntereoVivo]

Really, Katie nailed it (like normal).

The only thing I'd add is the point cost. 5 points doesn't seem like much but over the course of ten models, you end up saving 50 points. Now do that for two or three squads. The point increase becomes even more unnecessary when you consider that Berzerkers do the job just as well, sometimes better (as Katie pointed out).

 

[geenareeno]

I would do it. They're hella fun because of the randomness, they might(And this is why a lot of people don't use them) end up being godly, and they're not that much worse. Sure generally speaking over an average Khorne are a better unit but I would pick possessed anyway. Their models look awesome too

 

[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

I don't know... I just keep looking at the Berserkers and thinking they just look like more expensive vanilla Chaos Marines with Mark of Khorne, but more expensive and trading versatility (longer range weapons, special weapons options, etc.) for Furious Charge and Fearless. They just don't seem worth it to me. Sure, Furious Charge is kinda nice, but it only lasts one round of close combat, so if they don't wipe out the unit they're not much different. Fearless is kinda cool too, but with their high leadership and how unlikely they are to lose a close combat round, that doesn't seem like a big deal either.

I just don't understand the appeal I guess, but I'm open to hearing the arguments for it.

 

[IntereoVivo]

Without posting the stat lines next to each other, lets take a look at the two units. In fact, if you can, take a look at them while we talk this out.

At base your Possessed is going to charge with 3 S5 attacks at I4, a weapon skill of 4 meaning you'll hit on 4+ against MEQ.

At base your Berzerker is going to charge with 4 S5 attacks at I5, a weapon skill of 5 meaning you'll hit on 3+ against MEQ. He also has a pistol that he can shoot before the charge.

The Berzerker is 5 points cheaper. Clear win in my book.

Now, we come to Daemonkin. The first option is a waste of the 5 extra points you paid, the second is better, allowing the Possesed to hit on S6 their first charge, but still only with 3 attacks and no shooting before said charge. Option three, in my opinion, is another waste of space since you want them in a Rhino anyway. Four is good, but only works a 6th of the time which is terrible odds. Five is probably my favorite as it essentially makes them a S5 Termie. Six is arguably game-breaking, though again, 1 in 6 is bad odds.

Now, with two of the abilities being good, two being fair but conditional and two being fail, your odds of getting something useful when you play them are less then 50%.

Berzerkers on the other hand, deliver the same awesome consistently. And at less points.

However, while in my book, one is strictly better (Zerks) that doesn't mean it isn't fun to run Possessed at you enemies en-mass.

What do you think?

 

[Wolf_Lord_Skoll]

Possessed need to be cheaper to offset the randomness of Deamonkin. That and having Deamonkin rolled *before* deployment. With Frag Grenades, this would make them actually a viable unit.

 

[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

That makes sense, I can see how possessed are better than berserkers most of the time. I'm still wondering about berserkers vs vanilla marines with mark of khorne, though.

 

[maddermax]

That makes sense, I can see how possessed are better than berserkers most of the time. I'm still wondering about berserkers vs vanilla marines with mark of khorne, though.

Bezerkers when charging MEQ: 4 attacks, hit on 3s, wound on 3s at I5. So you strike first, and 10 of them will kill about 6 marines on the charge.

CSM with the mark of khorn: 4 attacks, hit on 4s, wound on 4s, I4. Strike simultaneously, 10 will kill about 3.3 marines on the charge, and get hit back with every attack from the enemy.

Off the charge, 'Zerkers kill 3.3, CSM kill 2.5. Also, the 'zerkers are fearless.

10 CSM with MoK are 180. 10 'Zerkers are 200. The only advantage of CSMs are Bolters and the ability to take special weapons. As a speciality assault unit though, 'Zerkers win hands down. No contest.

 

[LukeValantine]

I second the motion that possessed would be far more usable if they where just a bit cheaper. If they where just say 3-4 pts cheaper I think a lot more people would take them, but at 26pts their are just far more reliable choices. Just like spawn are overpriced for a uncontrollable unit with absolutely no save (30-35pts max is what their actually worth)

 

[Someguy]

The chaos book has a bunch of options available if you want MEQs for close combat. Zerkers are, without any doubt at all, the best. That's a shame because it would be nice to have some kind of choice or to have units that were good for different tasks, but that's just the way it is.

Zerkers have better WS than the alternatives and on the charge they have better strength and initiative. That means they will kill a whole lot more stuff (going from 4s to hit and wound to 3s actually almost doubles the wounds you cause, from 1/4 to 4/9) but, and this is the point a lot of people ignore, it means they live longer.

Going to initiative 5 means they (very often) strike before their opponents. Their opponents die and therefore don't attack back. WS5 means that lots of the better enemy troops who themselves have WS5, often the guys carrying power weapons etc, will need 4s to hit you instead of 3s.

Posessed don't come close. Much more expensive, non-scoring, less dangerous. Don't even talk about posessed with marks, when you can have 3 zerkers for 2 marked posessed. Vanilla marines do half as much damage to MEQs compared to zerkers and get hit back with equal initiative. They can have bolters, which is nice, but they aren't going to shoot them a lot anyway. Worst of all they aren't fearless so they can get pinned and run away. Zerkers don't do that.

The Skull Champion is the star of the show. With a power weapon he's more dangerous on the charge than a lot of independent characters, dropping multiple MEQs a turn. A fist with 4 str 9 attacks hitting on 3s makes a mess of most stuff. You don't get this guy if you go with vanilla or posessed.

The only thing you have to watch for is that other people are starting to have decent melee infantry as well. Space wolves and blood angels can both field troops who can compete with zerkers, and make fools of posessed and vanilla marines.