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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've played about 3-4 games of 40K now and am starting to get a feel for the various units. This is the first time I've sat down and tried to prepare a cohesive list ahead of a game.

Crimson Slaughter Primary Detachment

HQ
Sorcerer, ML2, Power Armour, Balestar of Mannon — 110pts

Elites
Plague Marines × 7, Melta × 2, Rhino, Combi-bolter, Dirge Caster — 233pts

Troops
Cultists × 20, Flamer × 2 — 100pts
Cultists × 10 — 50pts

Fast Attack
Heldrake, Baleflamer — 170pts

Heavy Support
Vindicator, Darmonic Possession, Combi-bolter — 140pts
Obliterators × 2, Nurgle — 152pts

Fortifications
Aegis Defence Line, Quad-gun — 100pts

Chaos Daemons Allied Detachment

HQ
Be'Lakor — 350pts

Troops
Plaguebeaerers × 9, Plagueridden — 95pts

The idea is to play a defensive game. Sorcerer will be with the cultists who will be manning the quad-gun. He will be throwing prescience on either the Vindicator or the Obliterators. Be'lakor will be throwing invisibility on whatever is getting the most attention and intercepting units approaching the gunline.

Plaguemarines will be scouting for close objectives to camp on. Plaguebearers will be kept in reserve to drop down and capture distant objectives or otherwise interfere with backfield units. The smaller group of cultists I will try to use as cover or protection for the more valuable units.

My biggest concern at the moment is not having enough bodies on the table, and obviously lacking mobility. Also Be'lakor is a lot of points in a 1500 list, but I really just want to use him since I just got the model :). Other models I have include additional cultists, stock CSMs, 2 Helbrutes, Raptors and Terminators.
 

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Warsmith
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What type of game will you be playing with this list? AKA Tactical objectives or Not.

I would be tempted to put the Autcannon on the Heldrake, drop the Defense line and add a hellbrute. Espcialy if you are playing with Tactical Objectives when it will pay to be more mobile.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What type of game will you be playing with this list? AKA Tactical objectives or Not.
Probably an Eternal War mission and probably against an Eldar or 'nid player.

I would be tempted to put the Autcannon on the Heldrake, drop the Defense line and add a hellbrute. Espcialy if you are playing with Tactical Objectives when it will pay to be more mobile.
I've never ran the Heldrake with HAC, so I'd be interested in seeing how it goes. The 2 Helbrutes I have are from the Dark Vengeance set so I'm a bit limited with load-out there (3rd one on it's way). The ADL is mostly for anti-air, since most players in my group have decent air options.
 

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Warsmith
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I've never ran the Heldrake with HAC, so I'd be interested in seeing how it goes. The 2 Helbrutes I have are from the Dark Vengeance set so I'm a bit limited with load-out there (3rd one on it's way). The ADL is mostly for anti-air, since most players in my group have decent air options.
The Heldrake with HAC should work as Anti-Air (its at good as the quad-gun)... I like the Dark Vengeance Helbrute its cheep and packs a punch. (I normally upgrade to the Heavy Flamer on the Power-fist, but the model has a 'mouth' on the Fist that can easly be claimed to be the source of the fire)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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HQ
Sorcerer, ML2, Power Armour, Balestar of Mannon — 110pts
I'd try to get a spell familiar in here, as the Familiar lets you try more risky casts with relative impunity... and a ML3, if possible, just for the extra roll's chance of getting something good, though that's less important than the former option. To get the spell familiar, I'd probably drop the combi-bolters (yes, even the Vindi's, given how rarely "weapon destroyed" is a thing) and the Plagueridden.

I've never ran the Heldrake with HAC, so I'd be interested in seeing how it goes. The 2 Helbrutes I have are from the Dark Vengeance set so I'm a bit limited with load-out there (3rd one on it's way). The ADL is mostly for anti-air, since most players in my group have decent air options.
Hearing this, it's honestly a bit more of an argument to try running the HAC-drake, given the air opponents you face--the Drake automatically having Skyfire, even at BS3, when coupled with its Vector Strikes... makes it a decent either/or choice, for AA. Which is not to say you couldn't rely on Vector Strikes and always only flame ground infantry with the Baleflamer if you only are against 1 enemy flyer... but the HAC could work, especially with the Balestar Sorc ready to cast Prescience on it so it hits with 75% rather than 50% of its shots (on average).

w/r/t the DSing Plaguebearers: beware templates and blasts, especially ones that Ignore Cover. Plaguebearers can be the perfect delivery to the perfect place, with their 4+ poisoned and 6s glancing... but at the same time, they can be nearly wiped out by a well-placed blast template or flamer after DSing, what with not being able to run and spread out after coming in thanks to Slow and Purposeful.

It looks like a pretty solid, albeit defensive and reactive, list. Many--indeed, perhaps most--of these units are "take all comers" ones, who can act as necessary depending on what enemy they face, down to PM plague knifes and meltas (though oblit weapon flexibility and a Vindi's equal opportunities exploding fools, or Be'lakor's armorbane and fleshbane alike, are necessarily more direct)... there isn't much specialization here, of the sort that might be able to take out a Knight or multiple Wave Serpents, but at the same time... there's the ability to address most threats as they come.

I have some personal issues with a defensive game, honestly. In a Maelstrom setting, you simply don't have the mobility to redeploy and claim as necessary--still, all in all, it's a fairly solid list that will perform well in those Eternal War missions (like you've said you'll be playing) it's called upon to handle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks mate, I've been reading a lot of your tactica articles. Great stuff!

I'd try to get a spell familiar in here, as the Familiar lets you try more risky casts with relative impunity... and a ML3, if possible, just for the extra roll's chance of getting something good, though that's less important than the former option. To get the spell familiar, I'd probably drop the combi-bolters (yes, even the Vindi's, given how rarely "weapon destroyed" is a thing) and the Plagueridden.
Doesn't the Balestar include the reroll given by a spell familiar? ML3 is a good suggestion.

Hearing this, it's honestly a bit more of an argument to try running the HAC-drake, given the air opponents you face--the Drake automatically having Skyfire, even at BS3, when coupled with its Vector Strikes... makes it a decent either/or choice, for AA. Which is not to say you couldn't rely on Vector Strikes and always only flame ground infantry with the Baleflamer if you only are against 1 enemy flyer... but the HAC could work, especially with the Balestar Sorc ready to cast Prescience on it so it hits with 75% rather than 50% of its shots (on average).
The biggest disadvantage I can see with the Heldrake as AA is not being able to shoot at the Vector-Strike target in the same turn. I think I'll still give is a shot though; interested to see the S8 HAC shots at work.

I have some personal issues with a defensive game, honestly. In a Maelstrom setting, you simply don't have the mobility to redeploy and claim as necessary--still, all in all, it's a fairly solid list that will perform well in those Eternal War missions (like you've said you'll be playing) it's called upon to handle.
Cool. I really want to play a more mobile and offensive list, but am lacking the models at the moment.

Revised list that I'll be running tomorrow against a Tyrannid player:

Crimson Slaughter Primary Detachment

HQ
Sorcerer, ML3, Power Armour, Balestar of Mannon — 135pts

Elites
Plague Marines × 7, Melta × 2, Rhino, Combi-bolter, Dirge Caster — 233pts
Helbrite, Multi-melta, Powerfist, Heavy Flamer — 115pts

Troops
Cultists × 15 — 70pts
Cultists × 10 — 50pts

Fast Attack
Heldrake, HAC — 170pts

Heavy Support
Vindicator, Darmonic Possession — 135pts
Obliterators × 2, Nurgle — 152pts

Chaos Daemons Allied Detachment

HQ
Be'Lakor — 350pts

Troops
Plaguebeaerers × 9 — 90pts
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Doesn't the Balestar include the reroll given by a spell familiar? ML3 is a good suggestion.
D'oh. Of course. My bad. I blame the alcohol!

The biggest disadvantage I can see with the Heldrake as AA is not being able to shoot at the Vector-Strike target in the same turn.
Yeah, that's the thing. Damn the Movement Phase for happening before the Shooting Phase if you will. I mean, that Flyers can shoot up to 4 weapons isn't much consolation when you only have a 90 degree fire arc and one weapon to shoot. If your opponent is fielding 2 flyers, it's possible that you could luckily line up a Vector Strike+HAC shot in the same turn... but in most cases, the value of the HAC is that you can't always get a Vector Strike (such as the turn you fly on, vs a cautious opponent), or don't want to make yourself vulnerable to an enemy flier that suvives your Vector Strike going into Hover Mode and shooting right up your kilt into your AV10 rear....

Still, the Baledrake will more reliably be able to make its points back in a turn or two of shooting, as far as I'm concerned. The HACdrake is far more useful against enemy fliers, especially with a Balestar in play, but... doesn't, honestly, have too much other use, especially after the 7e nerf to non-flyer Vector Strikes. Sorry if I'm undermining my own advice here!

(I see that you have the "Plaguebearers x9" for the points of a 10x squad, and am just going to assume you meant a 10x squad after dropping the Plagueridden but forgot to change it, since that's the minimum and all)
 

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Nice list. at 1500 belakor is triky (not cheap at all!) , but...it can work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
A quick report from the game today. The list performed fairly well but I made a lot of mistakes.

I was playing a Tyranid list with about half his list starting in reserve. We rolled for mission and ended up Purge the Alien with Hammer and Anvil deployment. The other player won the roll and chose to deployed first and for me have first turn.

He deployed 3 Biovores in the back-field with a Tyranofex, a Harpy and a Zoanthrope. I sent Be'lakor swooping forward using cover to take care of him with the plague marines. Unfortunately Be'lakor periled casting invisibility, took a wound and got grounded for another wound. He then proceeded to clear out those units by turn 3 picking up first blood.

The Vindicator took a penetrating hit turn 1 and of course got a weapon destroyed result, turning it into a moving piece of terrain. I ended up camping him in the enemy deploy zone for a cheap line-breaker point.

Warriors, Genestealers, Rippers and Gargoyles started DS and Outflank on his turn 2, all from the edge near my cultists, with none scattering. Unfortunately I wasn't paying attention and let him charge with the Genestealers that turn, which wiped a cultist unit and let him consolidate right next-to the Sorcerer's unit, which had been going to ground in ruins.

The Heldrake came on and chased a Flying Hive Tyrant around the table for 4 turns, only managing to chip of 2 wounds with no grounding despite having Deamonforged for a turn, as well as Prescience for at least 2. Bad rolling there, but BS3 really doesn't help. Still he managed to control the Flyrant and keep him away from other units. He also used vector-strike on the Harpy and killed it turn 3.

The Plaguebearers were ineffective, mostly due to a bad scatter on DS. Killed the turn after they arrived by the Flyrant shooting and Gargoyle's finishing in assault. Probably wouldn't take them in this capacity again.

The Sorcerer was great for prescience, but ended up killing himself from perils wounds on turn 5, giving the warlord kill. I also rolled poorly in all psychic phases giving very few warp charges throughout the game.

The Helbrute got really bogged down with difficult terrain; I always find it hard to get these guys into the action. He ended up being useful for a multi-unit assault with the Obliterators in the last 2 turns.

We called it after turn 5, I won 7 to 6. The following turn would have given me 1-2 more VPs with a chance of the other player maybe getting 1.
 

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The Vindicator took a penetrating hit turn 1 and of course got a weapon destroyed result, turning it into a moving piece of terrain. I ended up camping him in the enemy deploy zone for a cheap line-breaker point.
that's why you should always add one or two extra weapons to the vindi (15 pts more and you have a combibolter and a combiflamer)

let him charge with the Genestealers that turn
THAT'S HERESY!!! :laugh:

The Helbrute got really bogged down with difficult terrain
i can feel your pain. i usually use it as a backfield support for my cultists, with a plasma cannon to boot or take three of them and deepstrke them with the formation...

We called it after turn 5, I won 7 to 6
Great to know, what are the changes you plan to make in the end?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
that's why you should always add one or two extra weapons to the vindi (15 pts more and you have a combibolter and a combiflamer)
Yeah, I did have this in the original list but dropped the extra weapon for a Mastery Level on the Sorcerer. I got unlucky, but also didn't realise the Tyrannofex was carrying a S10 weapon and needlessly exposed the Vindicator.

i can feel your pain. i usually use it as a backfield support for my cultists, with a plasma cannon to boot or take three of them and deepstrke them with the formation...
Yeah I'm very interested in the formations. Hanging out for my third Helbrute to hopefully arrive this week. Shipping sucks so much over here :angry:

Great to know, what are the changes you plan to make in the end?
I'll probably drop the daemon allies and Take Be'lakor as a Warlord instead of the Sorcerer. Not because the plaguebearers were useless, I just don't think they fit well with the rest of the army. Maybe Pink Horrors for additional Psyker? Otherwise I'd be tempted to throw those points around the rest of the list grabbing a few extra bodies and upgrades.
 

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I'll probably drop the daemon allies and Take Be'lakor as a Warlord instead of the Sorcerer. Not because the plaguebearers were useless, I just don't think they fit well with the rest of the army. Maybe Pink Horrors for additional Psyker? Otherwise I'd be tempted to throw those points around the rest of the list grabbing a few extra bodies and upgrades.
i was almost tempted to suggest the "daemon dropping" in my post, but i didn't want to ruin the feel of the army. If i might, i'd suggest you to give a scroll trough IA 13 and the lost & damned list. Some hefty allies in there for you... basically you'll have 500 pt free and lost & damned can pack a punch at 500. lots of artillery and bodies
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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If you want to save some points on Plaguebearers, a squad of 3 Nurgling bases are half as expensive, have 2 more wounds (albeit at 1 lower Toughness), still have Shrouded, and are generally easier to hide from enemy line of sight.
 
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