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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, bolt of change, MoT - 200

Elites
Dread, multimelta - 100

Troops
10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts

10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with havoc launcher - 285

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x plasma
rhino with havoc launcher - 295

Fast Attack
10 Raptors, champ pf/plasma, meltabombs, icon of chaos glory x2 plasma guns -300pts

Heavy support
1 Pred, autocannon, heavy bolters - 100pts

this has been the list i have been using for turning my buddies ig, nid, and ork armies to gooey splats

i use the icons to bring my deepstrikers in of course and then pwnzor the little hordes... at 2500 pts the list is about the same but includes the princes identical twin another dread and 2 more preds just like the ones listed...

give me all the c&C you got
 

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HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, bolt of change, MoT - 200
Good

Elites
Dread, multimelta - 100
I'll be honest. This shouldn't be here. Multimeltas have no place on a Chaos Dread. You don't have access to a drop pod to get him close, so that MM of yours is worthless.

Troops
10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts
10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts
General consensus is using squads of 8 Zerks. Any more, and you'll butcher a squad in one turn and then they'll get shot up waiting to assault next turn. Drop the plasma pistols. All of them. If you're actually stopping your Zerks and having them shoot instead of running, then you're doing something VERY wrong.

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with havoc launcher - 285
10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x plasma
rhino with havoc launcher - 295
These are fine, but I'd suggest making both squads melta.

Fast Attack
10 Raptors, champ pf/plasma, meltabombs, icon of chaos glory x2 plasma guns -300pts
No. No. No. You're putting a rapid fire weapon in an assault squad. Give them meltas or flamers, either MoK or MoS, and give the champ Lightning Claws.

Heavy support
1 Pred, autocannon, heavy bolters - 100pts
This is good, but I'd suggest some Obliterators instead. If you drop this and the Dread, and shave 25 points somewhere else, you can grab a trio of them.

this has been the list i have been using for turning my buddies ig, nid, and ork armies to gooey splats

i use the icons to bring my deepstrikers in of course and then pwnzor the little hordes... at 2500 pts the list is about the same but includes the princes identical twin another dread and 2 more preds just like the ones listed...

give me all the c&C you got
Take this as you will. Just my 2¢.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Everyone says that... take the plasmas out take the plasmas out. You can't assault the turn you run! so leaving the plasmas on the berserkers is fine dude, zerkers no have fleet sorry bud.


the dread works quite well for poping that god damn valk my buddy likes to run in his ig as well as his meltavets chimy.

also edit, I mis-typed on the raptors they have plasma pistols not guns sorry for that error here is a repost of my list:

HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, bolt of change, MoT - 200

Elites
Dread, multimelta - 100

Troops
10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts

10 Zerkers, champ w/pf-plasma pistol, personal icon, 2 extra plas-pistols
rhino with havoc launcher - 360pts

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with havoc launcher - 285

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x plasma
rhino with havoc launcher - 295

Fast Attack
10 Raptors, champ pf/plasma, meltabombs, icon of chaos glory x2 plasma pistols-300pts
or
10 Raptors, champ pw/plasma, meltabombs, IoS, x2 plasma pistols-300pts


Heavy support
1 Pred, autocannon, heavy bolters - 100pts

I only play WYSIWYG so lightning claws in this list are out seeing as I don't own any at the moment
 

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If all you want is a list built to take your friends apart every time, and not a take-all-comers list, then ignore this post.

I have to agree with everything Inquisitor had to say. Plasma pistols aren't necessary, squads of 10 Zerkers are too large, Chaos Dreads are ugly, and your ranged fire support is lacking. Also for the rolls raptors can do, I find them inferior to other options (eg Chosen make better tank busters)

The changes I would personally make:

1) Change bolt of change to wind of chaos on DP. 5 more points for a MUCH better ability, considering the DP excels at combat.
2) Drop the Dread
3) Drop Zerkers to 8 men, and drop plasma pistols
4) Change plasma on vanilla marines to more meltas. Only use plasmas for an objective holding squad. If that is what this squad is going to be, keep the plasmas and drop the champ with pfist.
5) Drop raptors
6) Drop Pred..there are much better HS choices
7) Add Oblits and/or Vindis
8) Consider adding a second DP

The problem is that you have a list that may destroy what your friends play (horde armies) or work well against how they play, but in general it has some competitive issues since most fights will be against MEqs. These issues may not come to light against a few select friends, so this may be a moot point. But this is a forum for competitive advice, so I feel obliged.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
retooling the list just a bit...

Q
Prince: wings, warptime, winds of chaos, MoT - 205


Troops
10 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with havoc launcher - 315pts

10 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with havoc launcher - 315pts

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with havoc launcher - 290

10 CSM squad, champ Pw/plasma, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x plasma
rhino with havoc launcher - 285 Objective holding

Fast Attack
10 Raptors, champ pw/plasma, meltabombs, IoK, x2 flamers-280pts

HS
Defiler 4 dccw - 150

Defiler 4 dccw - 150
 

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Everyone says that... take the plasmas out take the plasmas out. You can't assault the turn you run! so leaving the plasmas on the berserkers is fine dude, zerkers no have fleet sorry bud.
I made no insinuation that Zerks have fleet. The point is, they should NEVER stop to shoot at something. You want them running every turn so they get into assault range all the faster.

I have to agree with everything Inquisitor had to say.
Thank you, Zaden.

retooling the list just a bit...
Defiler 4 dccw - 150

Defiler 4 dccw - 150
I think I see where you're trying to go with these, but if you're looking for fire support, then CC Defilers are not the way to go about it. If you're going to kit them out for assault, then why would you sit back and fire with them? One of their greatest perks is that 72" range. Make use of it.
 

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Ive been playing World Eaters since 3rd Ed so I consider myself fairly good at using Berzerkers. And I'm gonna echo what everyone else is saying. Drop the plasma pistols and reduce the squad to 8. There is no point in giving berzerkers guns that allow your opponents no saves. The reason being a smart opponent will pull guys from his unit to try and deny you the charge by making your unit out of 6" to assualt. Also if you do inflict serious damage from shooting then assualt the enemy unit you will wipe it out and be stuck there in the open waiting to be shot to death. :hang1: Same thing with having too many guys in your squad.

The other thing I would definitly change is the havoc launcher on the rhinos to extra armour. It does your units absolutely no good if their transport can't move. Especially the Berzerkers who are relying on the rhino to close with the enemy to do what they do best. Take skulls for Khorne! :victory:

Drop the PW off your Champs for PFs. This means no relying on melta bombs. Plus you'll get more than 1 shot per turn at popping tanks.

Give your raptors the IoS instead of IoK. Going first in an assualt will mean most of your opponents are dead before they get to fight back which equates into less casualties for you. Init is more important in CC than the number of attacks you have. Can't use your attacks if you're already dead.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I made no insinuation that Zerks have fleet. The point is, they should NEVER stop to shoot at something. You want them running every turn so they get into assault range all the faster.
SO you are saying you never soften up a squad with a hail of pistol fire before assaulting?

okay lets try it again...

HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, winds of chaos, MoT - 205


Troops
8 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with extra armor - 273pts

8 Zerkers, champ w/pf, personal icon
rhino with extra armor - 278pts

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with extra armor - 280

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with extra armor - 280

Fast Attack
7 Raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers-210pts
6 raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers - 170pts

HS
Defiler h. flamer, reaper - 150

Defiler h. flamer, reaper - 150

1996/2000

okay I did my best to move my points around and came up with this
 

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[/COLOR] SO you are saying you never soften up a squad with a hail of pistol fire before assaulting?
I'm not saying I never do. I'm just saying I never do so with Berserkers. Zerks rely a bit too heavily on getting the charge. Sure, they're rock-hard when charged, but they don't do quite enough damage without charging, so stopping to shoot is a waste of time with them.

8 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with extra armor - 273pts

8 Zerkers, champ w/pf, personal icon
rhino with extra armor - 278pts
The only thing I can suggest is PERHAPS (and this is all down to preference, seeing as you still don't have too much anti-tank) to consider putting a Combi-Melta on each of the Zerker Rhinos. Use the Melta to pop a transport, and then have the Zerkers charge whatever was inside it.

List looks much better, all said.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The main reason I like plasmas is when facing nids and their MC's with regen, its nice to soften them up. I enjoy blowing them away in CC on the charge then consolidating into cover when possible. In all actuallity, I find running plasmas(guns and rifles pending squad) better than meltas considering the only MEQ units I have to deal with on a regualr basis are GK attachments on IG.

When we go to the our local gaming store I deal with blood angels, space puppies, and the occaional tau player and so far I have had no difficulty poping their transports, dreads, or tau tanks with plasmas or a good PF. Baal Preads are a little harder, but thats what back armor is for lol.

I guess the main reason I like plasmaguns is that 24 inch pot shot of "take that invul save at +5 douche" or more often rapid firing them into a MC with a squad of chosen x5 plasmas. It just seems to work out.

One thing am havign trouble adjusting to in 5th ed is all the damn transports. I used to be able to scare peeps of the table with 2000pts of foot slogging chaos in 3rd. Now the massive force is like 4 rhinos maybe a LR and 2 defilers, with raptors/terminators/DP deep striking in. It just doesn't look as impressive.

Things really have changed.
 

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The main reason I like plasmas is when facing nids and their MC's with regen, its nice to soften them up. I enjoy blowing them away in CC on the charge then consolidating into cover when possible. In all actuallity, I find running plasmas(guns and rifles pending squad) better than meltas considering the only MEQ units I have to deal with on a regualr basis are GK attachments on IG.

When we go to the our local gaming store I deal with blood angels, space puppies, and the occaional tau player and so far I have had no difficulty poping their transports, dreads, or tau tanks with plasmas or a good PF. Baal Preads are a little harder, but thats what back armor is for lol.

I guess the main reason I like plasmaguns is that 24 inch pot shot of "take that invul save at +5 douche" or more often rapid firing them into a MC with a squad of chosen x5 plasmas. It just seems to work out.

One thing am havign trouble adjusting to in 5th ed is all the damn transports. I used to be able to scare peeps of the table with 2000pts of foot slogging chaos in 3rd. Now the massive force is like 4 rhinos maybe a LR and 2 defilers, with raptors/terminators/DP deep striking in. It just doesn't look as impressive.

Things really have changed.
To be honest, I'm a plasma junkie myself. I try to run as many as I can, but with all the mech armies running around, they just don't cut it anymore. Sure, they can pop Rhinos and such, but meltas do that with more effectiveness and for fewer points, to boot. I too miss the old days where plasma was good; where melta wasn't necessary for a list to function. But as you said, times have changed.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What would be nice is if Havocs or chosen could take multimeltas or plascannons. I mean it would make the list balanced with SM devstators and their variants liek long fangs... gettin' to shoot multiple targets with one squad is a moot point every marine should have an opportunity to have... plus oblits wouldn't be a thign that was needed... if only you could have one squad select multiple weapons to fire the same round, and split targets... lets see, i think i will use these two to fire plasma cannons at your tac squad, and one lascannon shot at your rhino... see that would be fair... if devstators can do it, why can't oblits?

GW needs to stop nerfing us CSM players for sure!
 

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It's all because GW neutered our beloved Chaos Codex. :ireful2: What was once super customizable and Legion specific oriented has turned into the same vanilla paste that Loyalist Marines have been dealing with for years. In some cases I think Loyalists have it better now overall. Their ability to swap out Chapter Tactics and replace it with specific rules to field specific armies, like The Crimson Fists, is way better than our pathetic Icons that can be killed off losing the squad all benefits. :headbutt:

I don't blame the rules of 5th Ed for so many mech armies. I blame a growing awareness on the part of marine players thanks to forums like these. I always fielded my World Eaters in Rhinos and Raiders. But I noticed many others didn't until forums became popular for info. People could see what worked well and had a vast knowledge base to draw on instead of just winging it and learning from experience. The only thing I noticed that encouraged Mech was rhinos dropped by 15 points, razorbacks were introduced, and drop pods became widely available. Razorbacks still suck IMO. Lets transport 6 guys, put a big gun on top, and paint a damn bullseye on it because it attracts lots of firepower and is only armour 11. Lets make it over twice the price of a rhino too! :wacko:
 

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As someone who plays both Loyalists and CSM, I can say for certain that we (read: CSM Players) got bitchslapped by GW. Sure, both codexes suck, but the customization abilities inherent in the Vanilla dex is lacking in ours, and so we get the same copy-paste list that the mook next to us has, because that's all we can do. I'd like to point any who read this to a line in my sig:

The One True (Chaos) Codex was the greatest thing ever made by GW. (This, of course, being the jewel that was the previous dex)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You mean liek how they took away the ability to make our own deamon princes, give them Demon Weapons etc?

GW fucked us into building list revolving around mech and x9 oblits. any way does anyone else have any comments on my list?

HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, winds of chaos, MoT - 205


Troops
8 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with extra armor - 273pts

8 Zerkers, champ w/pf, personal icon
rhino with extra armor - 278pts

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with extra armor - 280

10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with extra armor - 280

Fast Attack
7 Raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers-210pts
6 raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers - 170pts

HS
Defiler h. flamer, reaper - 150

Defiler h. flamer, reaper - 150

1996/2000
C&C please!
 

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I like it! Mobile, lots of dakka, CC ability, and the meanest CC Prince and the toughest to boot! Some may say Nurgle but really, when you're getting shot at by Str 8 or 9 Ap1 /2 weapons it don't matter if your toughness 6 or 5. Even against power fist weilders. You're still taking wounds on 2+ with a 5+ invul save. At least MoT gives you a 50% chance to shrug it off. :so_happy:

PS: I really do miss my Prince with the Berzerker Glaive, Feel No Pain, Daemon Armour, Daemonic Strength, and Collar of Khorne. He bitchslapped entire armies by himself. Ah the good ole days... :king:
 

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better than your other lists! Dakka and good!:biggrin:
 

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HQ
Prince: wings, warptime, winds of chaos, MoT - 205


nice prince set up, this is how i run both of mine in my T sons army. However in my death guard army i run one with wings, nurgle, warptime and a typhus. the tzeentch prince is deffinatly nastier.

Troops
8 Zerkers, champ w/pf
rhino with extra armor - 273pts


personally i don't run berzerkers anymore,{ i didn't have transports...got shot up alot}, however i like this set up. i honestly would drop the fist, these guys probably don't want to be attacking tanks or MC's as their natural horde slaughterers. would go with power weapons. Also i would ditch extra armor on the tank, i find rhinos are a one trip ferry, so no sencce trying to make them more survivable when most anti-tank pennitrate on a 2 or 3 easily..that what smokes for.


10 CSM squad, champ Pf/combimelta, Icon of chaos GLory, 2x melta
rhino with extra armor - 280


again same deal with the rhino, other then that i like this build, i enjoy a nice round of 3 melta shots.

7 Raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers-210pts
6 raptors, champ W/PF, IoS x2 flamers - 170pts


i would try to add a body to the squad of 6, then i would upgrade to icons of khorne, giventhe powerfist situation the init 5 is wasted, better to have more nastier attacks. i would also swap for a more anti-tank/MC purpose with these since you do have the fist, i feel anything that could be slaughtered with flamers shouldn't require a fist to deal with, so i would actually change the flamers to melta.

Defiler h. flamer, reaper - 150

change these back. you want the multiple DCCW's. since their free think of them as insurance, you cannot fire any other guns then the battle cannon anyways, so if you loose the cannon you gain a berserk Deamon machine of doom, it also works that way if they get too close.
 

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Just wondering what the personal icon is for on the Zerker champ. Not sure if anyone else has posted it cos im too tired to read lots tonight but your raptors cant benefit from icons. Only teleporting units can. Oblits, termis and deamons as said on P81.

Sorry if im repeating something someone allready pointed out but thats 5 points you could save there!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, to be honest I have no idea why I put the icon on the Zerker other than I had like 9 points left over or something and used it to place the icon for no real reason other than because I could spend the points lol.

also note on the raptors I would switch to lightning claws on them instead of the PF, if i had the bits. I would rather keep the IoS so the rest of the squad can attack fast and finish off the last of the enemy with two pf attacks
 
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