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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey all.
I'm facing off vs. WoC in a friendly match this week. I can't play against them in my usual manner, but have to work on a new strategy...one of surround and impact.
Here's my pass at the list, but still come up 62 points over and can't figure out where to shave it while not hurting the list.

2500 point Beastman army for 10/1/10
Lord:
• Khazrak one Eye: 270
• Doombull: Steel Claws, Ramhorn Helm, Dawnstone, Potion of speed, Gnarled Hide, Heavy Armor= 342
(2+ AS, with re-rolls and attacks on anyone who fails to best his armor, starting at 6-8 attacks, possible 8 initative
Heroes:
  • Slugtounge: 190
  • Lvl 2 shaman: AHW, stone of spite, Lore of Beasts= 137
  • BSB: Heavy armor, shield, Banner of the true beast=185
  • Wargor: Heavy armor, sword of swift-slaying, luckstone, gouge tusks: 138
Core:
  • Ungor spearmen x 48: Banner, Musician= 297
  • Gor Herd x 20: AHW banner, musician = 140
  • Gor Herd x 20: AHW banner, musician = 140 *ambush*
  • Tuskagor Chariot: 80
  • Tuskagor Chariot: 80
Special:
  • Bestigors x 24: Manbane standard, Musician: 341
  • Minotaurs x3: AHW,HA, Bloodkine w/ Gold sigil sword : 222 (giving the BK some great initiative as well.)
Total: 2562…

I can't seem to lose the 62 points easily.
My first thoughts are to combine the gor herds and lessen the number to 30. Bam, there's 80 free.
or, lose the second gor herd and a chariot= freeing me up for a Razorgor chariot. Yes please to 4 str 6 attacks on the charge with PRIMAL FURY and impacts!!

using some great advice (thanks Khorothis), I dropped all champions from units due to the overkill that WoC would surely rack up. the only Heroes/ lords here are ones that can dish it out and can take it.

Khazrak: 2+ as, highest WS for beastmen & his dark mail makes crazy-insane magic weapons inert. (whew)

Doombull: fills a ton of roles. Gives the Minos frenzy out the gate for more attacks which SHOULD win combat. His impact hits are D3. On my charge i would use the cheap potion of swiftness for I 8 and with steel claws will get a load of attacks in. His armor save + ramhorn means he'll be getting tons of retaliatory attacks...even rerolls on failed AS for more attacks.

Wargor: ASF and AP attacks. This guy is the body guard of the BSB, so he should have the +1 str from the BSB and maybe even Wyssans for 4 possible str 6 attacks w/ armor piercing. If that's not enough to kill the WoC challenging him, he has the luckstone to try to keep him alive.

Bloodkine: high Initiative will let him strike before most non characters. Coupled with his frenzy and blood greed, this should be a flurry of blows.

Shaman: stone of spite once the Sorcerers are within range. I'm praying for a meltdown of the winds of chaos :spiteful:

I'm relying on lots of impact hits and having any unit they field hit on 2 sides if not more. The ambushing unit would hit a particularly dense unit from behind adding more to the CR.

The bestigors will stay in range of the BSB and hopefully find a nice flank or just hack into heavily armored units enough to allow the chariots a second flank on that unit.

the main line (ungor mass...NOT HORDE) will slowly move up, forming a V in my lines, while the sides rush outward then charge in as the warriors swoop in for the kill. With Wyssans, and luck, the Ungor could become str 5 T4 with their paltry 6+ as.

whew.

any advice would be appreciated.
*my math was off... the Gor herds have AHW....blast it....
 

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Well! that was a read :p This list looks good, I rather like it. There are really only a couple of things I see off the bat, only one wizard at this points level, means you will be wasting a lot of dice IMO. Secondly your BSB only has a 4+ AS, not really sure how you could improve that since you took a magic banner, but he might be prone to lore of death sniping. Or once that Wargor dies (unfortunatly, he will.) He is left severly unprotected.

Not to much to say for the chariots, always a good choice, if you make the flanks he is pretty much done, seeing as how he should realisticly have enough magic missiles to kill 2 chariots AND the minotuars, unless he went magic heavy. But then all you have to do it make it to combat and you win :p

Of your plans to free up points, both are good, but then you wouldnt be able to ambush. ( I think) Which would be a huge advantage.

Khazrak should be good to fight the Chaos characters, to an extent, because you have to remember, even though their weapons dont function, a basic Chaos Lord makes 5 attacks that hit him on 3's and would him on 4's and then Khazrak only has a 4+ armor save protecting him.

Not to much to be said for the minotaurs either, they are pretty straightforward. One thing, Im not sure if the dawnstone is worth it, mainly because against anything that makes his armor save bad (I.E WoC with halbers/great weapons, and Characters) He is just getting to re-roll a bad armor save. That why in my build I took a ward over the re-roll, so against basic troops I should be swinging out plenty more attacks, and I might get lucky against characters, but Im not counting on it. Rather relying on my 4+ Ward.


Hope that helps!
 

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I'd drop the Doombull and the Wargor and buy some more Minotaurs and another lvl2 Shaman with Lore of Shadows (Slugtongue has Lore of Death, right? :p You forgot to mention that since he can have a pick) and Hagtree Fetish (do the math: how many Minotaurs can you buy on the points spent on the Doombull and how much extra attacks does that mean (you might want to roll with 8-9)). I'd also consider the Banner of -1 Armour Save for the BSB and the Razor Banner for the Minotaurs (the Bestigors ruin armour efficiently enough), which can ruin the day for even a beefy unit of Warriors. This way you would not only benefit the Ungors with the banner, but any of your units in the same combat (which shouldn't be too hard, since your Ungor unit is pretty big and you might be able to force a multiple close combat).
 

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I disagree with Khorothis, (no offence) I think the Doombull is by far the wisest option over more Minos, Minotaurs add more attacks sure, but! Lower strength, Lower toughness, WS, and Total attacks per model. But most importantly nothing else in the ENTIRE beastman armybook can look at a chaos lord, Go, AND I QUOTE: "Lawl." Then proceed to eat him. Thats an important factor, because really without the Doombull, who is equal I to chaos warriors to, I might add, He will lose some minotaurs before killing a single warrior.

But I am mostly agreeable to the mage thing, as I already said.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
My mistake on several things.

Sluggy is a lvl 2 shaman w/ acess to lore or death, shadow, wild
he has many nice abilities, including CURSE of the Famine fiend. This is the beastman's a-bomb and can often wipe out war-machines BEFORE The game starts, if placed properly.
so with him and the lvl 2, that makes two lvl 2 shaman. Not a bad amount.
I think I will go death, but shadow is too nice to ignore vs the WoC. -str, -ws....etc etc spells? very handy.

I think I might lose the Magical banner; banner of the true beast, on the BSB and just have him for re-rolled ldr/ primal fury. In this case, I'd deck him out in armor and either MR or Ward...maybe ward to help his group survive.

so for the BSB:
wargor, HA, charmed shield, Talisman of preservation.

Good points about the doombull...I may take away the luckstone, seeing as it's very expensive and maybe use those points for fitting my army.
or just substitute it for talisman of endurance for 5+ Ward Save...providing some protection. (on top of his 2+ as)

I don't think minotaurs can take magic banners. One of the huge beastman army flaws...only BSB and the Bestigors can use magic banners.

thanks for the feedback
 

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One think Blackspine, you seem to be under the impression that ward saves protect a whole unit. Sadly this isnt the case, I didnt notice till revieiwng your comments on my list. If your doombull takes a save, it doesnt give the ward to his whole unit, only himself. The exception is magic resistance, which provides a ward save. Obviously there are always exceptions, but these are specified.

Im really stuck on the BSB thing, because that banner was a hinge for your strategy, and made that unit quite deadly. But he was very prone to getting killed...hmm. Really your decision
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ah...thanks for the correction.
Ward save for the doombull, then MR for the Large group?
I don't know. the Beast +1str banner is Huge for the strategy.
If I had managed more than 1 hour of sleep last night, perhaps I could think about this properly. For a cheaper version, there's the 'totem of rust' but won't help as much as a banner only 30 some points more.

I could add MR onto the shaman...but then this is more points. I may axe the ambushing unit....grr. The last thing I want to do. or I could take both chariots out and add a razorgor chariot...saving 15 pts....

oh decisions.

And Khorothis, I'd like to field 6 minos + doomy, but I'm not assembling more minotaurs till I'm done painting the current army...(even though the minos are 1/2 made)
 

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MR could be valuable, but hardly a neccesity, and no problem, better you know now before you get screwed over building your list with the wrong idea! I dont think the issue is the standard's points cost. Because really Banner of the beast is awesome, its just the matter of protecting him, and the fact it Warriors of chaos your going up against.
 

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In terms of challenges, only Khazrak stands a chance against a Chaos Lord, mainly because of his Dark Mail which ruins all those yummy magical weapons that WoC can get their claws on. The other worthy option is the Brass Bull (which is basically the Minotaur equivalent of Khazrak: if you want a decent Lord, you're better of with the special character than building one from a point-for-point perspective) but my money is on annihilating the Lord's unit and using the sheer mass of horns and hooves to deal with him.

Another thing to consider is that it is becoming an increasing trend among WoC players to get a Sorcerer Lord instead of a Chaos Lord, who might be a great fighter but he'll have magical items that buff his casting potential, not his close combat strength. Which you piss on with Khazrak anyway. :p So in the end, I'd drop the Doombull and blablabla the same thing I said before. :p

Oh and purely as an example: compare the Doombull's cost to your Bestigors'. :p
 

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Khazrak really CANT handle a chaos lord, Dark mail or not. As I previously said, a chaos lord assuming unmarked and all that, makes 5 attacks hitting Khazrak on 3's then wounding on 4's and Khazrak has ONLY a ward save to protect him. He hits back with 4 attacks, hitting on 4's wounding on 4's to which the chaos lord gets a six, ASSUMING no armor buffs/ward save which happens almost never.
 

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I disagree, Khazrak has no ward save, only a 2+ armour save, which will be reduced to a 4+ save thanks to the S5 of the Chaos Lord. Same goes the other way. Except that Khazrak has Primal Fury and rerolls all failed to hits (if you can't get it with Ld9 you need to talk with your dice). So its a pretty even match. Perhaps if the Lord had MoT and Armour of Destiny then Khazrak would be at a solid disadvantage - IF the WoC player rolls well. But since its a friendly game and theres a considerable chance that there won't be a Lord at all its rather unlikely. Unless the WoC player is a dick and the word "friendly" here means "you'll be nice and put up a good fight but you really should lose". :p
 

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how often do you see a chaos lord relying on only chaos armour though? Almost never. And it isnt really an even match then, chaos Lord has higher I as well. Khazrak is outmatched by a chaos lord. Doesnt mean he sucks. Chaos lords out match everybody.
 

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I meant a 4+ armour save the other way too because I assumed the Chaos Lord also had a 2+ armour, though getting a 1+ isn't too hard to get either but its somewhat more expensive.

Yeah, they outmatch everybody, especially in price; it takes almost 400 pts to build a decent one.
 

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yes, but for those 400pts. They eat regiments :p

A little off topic though!

So in conclusion to everything I said, I think this list is quite solid, the last few changfes are up to you, but it looks good to me! Best of luck with the game, let us know how it went!
 

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I meant a 4+ armour save the other way too because I assumed the Chaos Lord also had a 2+ armour, though getting a 1+ isn't too hard to get either but its somewhat more expensive.

Yeah, they outmatch everybody, especially in price; it takes almost 400 pts to build a decent one.
MoK on Jugg you get 1 + arnour which does not count to items (then give him the sword that gives you 3+ attack and watch the pain)

as for the list

list look goods,
MR might or might not be worth it as it depends on what lore he goes (and hope he dose not pick MoN) the only issue is killing thoses Warr but it seems you have plans to do so :p so l need not say more
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wow. Lots of great advice.

some fixes could be changing the DOOMbull for a GOREbull, relying on his frenzy and just hard hitting impact.
That would mean upgrading the Wargor to Beastlord.
even then, that would be a considerable savings in points...perhaps 100 right there if I budget right.

On the Khazrak debate:
Khazrak can only go toe to toe with Chaos Heros and some weaker lords. He is after all almost 1/2 the cost of most chaos lords. However, primal fury really does a ton to this fight. And the fact that he may have Wyssan's wildform and still be under the influence of the 'banner of the true beast', or does that not help in challenges?
Khazrak's weapon Scourge makes him an infantry butcher. Point for point, he is the best lord the beastmen have. Granted, that's my opinion, but he's affordable, provides nice ambush rolls and allows for decent leadership (9 for beastmen is the best we have) and can stand his own in most fights. WoC are just monsters when it comes to CC. This is an odd battle, both armies are good in CC, but WoC are more armored and like tanks. My goal is to surround them like annoying infantry and just clobber them

I may dump the doombull for a second unit of large Gors and equip the shaman/wargor with Crown of command for stubborn.

Back to the drawing board!
 

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main thing is to take out his magic in the end its all down to who can buff or de buff better and MoN can sure put the pain on CC army (the whole "you all have ST 3 T 3" wont go down well when vsing ST 5 T 4 with better amour saves)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
main thing is to take out his magic in the end its all down to who can buff or de buff better and MoN can sure put the pain on CC army (the whole "you all have ST 3 T 3" wont go down well when vsing ST 5 T 4 with better amour saves)
that's what the stone of spite is for.
That and I plan on focusing on the unit with the magician. All else can be held by flanks or just worked on. Magician unit will be priority #1.

I have no idea what to expect from this CC battle, but it will be insane.
I'll adjust my list in a bit. But this is a friendly list, meaning I think that I'll shelve the Doombull for now. It just seems a bit too competitive for my tastes in a friendly match.
Plus the idea of filling out units and ADDING a whole unit + chariot for the same price is very compelling.
 
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