[Tyriks]

So, since getting into Skitarii, I have really enjoyed the army. I want to branch out into Cult Mechanicus, too, but for now (since I have tons of SM models) I am looking at allying in some Blood Angels (or possibly regular marines) to help out my Skitarii. I'm not looking for a tournament list, but I do prefer winning to losing, and it seems like the game shop nearest me is mildly competitive.

The army has issues, of which I think Space Marines or some variant thereof are very well suited to correct all three primary issues, so I am not looking at imperial guard or inquisitors or grey knights. The three main issues the army has are a lack of transports, a lack of survivable cc units, and a lack of psykers. I don't want to put a ton of points into these allies, but I'm open to options.

So, my original idea was to bring a Baal Strike Force that consisted of a Librarian on a bike as hq so I could bring bikes as my troops (get them into cc fast so things aren't shooting at more important units) and then some Death Company with jump packs as my elite choice, and fill out FA with drop pods or rhinos. Maybe a land raider if I have points. But, then I realized BA can't bring bikes as troops, so I moved on (though if I switch to another chapter I might do this).

My second thought also turned out to not work with BA, which was cc-geared scouts in land speeders as troops. But BA don't seem to get LS storms, either. Whoops.

So, now I'm torn between picking a chapter I like the idea of and one that actually works with my Skitarii. I really like the idea of a dreadnought librarian (or just Mephiston himself, dude is a badass) and some Death Company covering my Skitarii's terrible weakness. I also really like having army wide +1 strength and initiative on charges. I could make do with something like:

Libnought (or Librarian with a jump pack to go with DC)
2 squads of scouts, infiltrate up to just harass/entangle/slow whoever needs it (that bs 3 tho)
Death Company (presumably 10 man with 2 power swords; I have no idea how people think DC should be equipped, but I don't think I want fists since the Skitarii can cover anything a fist can do, but cheaper).
Drop pods to put Skitarii where they belong.

Or I could just drop the psyker altogether (seems like a lone psyker is fine sometimes but just gets denied consistently if your opponent has any psykers) and bring a chaplain to join the DC. I don't really know what I'm doing with SM, so any thoughts are appreciated.

EDIT: Something else to consider here is that while this would be a supplement to my Skitarii for now, I would almost definitely end up expanding this into a force of its own when I am happy with my Skitarii.

 

[ntaw]

How many points do the allies have to work with and what models do you have in your collection that you would like to see used?

 

[Tyriks]

Models aren't really an issue, since I want to eventually expand this out. But I currently have (I think):
10 scouts, 10 tacticals, 10 death company, 5 assault marines, 5 assault terminators, 4 bikes, one dreadnought, one rhino, one land raider, one stormraven (stormwing? the little one, not the big one). Based on the people I've met so far at the FLGS, I would bet my opponents would be okay with me substituting units within reason since I am new and just don't have very much so far.

As for points, I'm open to anything. All of the games I have seen people playing were higher points than I could possibly field in Skitarii anyway. I guess as allies, 500-1000 would be reasonable.

So, having thought more about it, I think I'm asking too much. So, to focus in a little, I guess a better question would be what are my CC options with BA? Particularly in the elites slot. I think my troops are very likely to just be scouts to infiltrate up and be annoying, since that's cheaper than marines and I won't have to worry about transports. I know people praise the Death Company a lot, but also that they are pretty easy to kill with any kind of focused effort. I see people mentioning Sanguinary Priests (or is it Sanguinary Guard?) in lists but I have yet to see them in action.

Also, this is completely irrelevant, but Lemartes looks way too fucking good. I may need to find a spot for him (if only he was an HQ!) if I use DC just because I really like that model.

 

[ntaw]

So, to focus in a little, I guess a better question would be what are my CC options with BA? Particularly in the elites slot.

I know people praise the Death Company a lot, but also that they are pretty easy to kill with any kind of focused effort. I see people mentioning Sanguinary Priests (or is it Sanguinary Guard?) in lists but I have yet to see them in action.

DC are the absolute best bang for your buck. SG are good but cost a bit much and as you've noticed, things get dead when too much attention gets focused on them. Unless you're coming up against a lot of specifically AP3 weaponry DC are typically more survivable because the same points cost nets more bodies and said bodies have FnP built in and not at the premium of taking a Sanguinary Priest to attach to the squad. Hammernators are basically the same from any Chapter, but the Fragioso is not to be underestimated. Dropping in T1 with the frag cannon/heavy flamer combo messes a lot of stuff up, two of them even more so.

I think my troops are very likely to just be scouts to infiltrate up and be annoying, since that's cheaper than marines and I won't have to worry about transports.

If you ever want to change things up, the Flesh Tearers Detachment only requires one Troops selection AND we have a Troop Dreadnought in the form of Cassor from the Leviathan book.

Also, this is completely irrelevant, but Lemartes looks way too fucking good. I may need to find a spot for him (if only he was an HQ!) if I use DC just because I really like that model.

I have the old metal one I use quite a lot...not as bad ass though. Ever check out the Strike Force Mortalis Formation? Chaplain, 3x DC squads, 2x DC Dreads, Stormraven, all kitted the way you like. If you do MSU you can keep it under 1k no problem.

 

[Tyriks]

DC are the absolute best bang for your buck. SG are good but cost a bit much and as you've noticed, things get dead when too much attention gets focused on them. Unless you're coming up against a lot of specifically AP3 weaponry DC are typically more survivable because the same points cost nets more bodies and said bodies have FnP built in and not at the premium of taking a Sanguinary Priest to attach to the squad. Hammernators are basically the same from any Chapter, but the Fragioso is not to be underestimated. Dropping in T1 with the frag cannon/heavy flamer combo messes a lot of stuff up, two of them even more so.

I haven't been all that impressed by hammernators. They just cost so much. What's with BA assault terminators costing more but being cheaper to upgrade? That's weird. I think I like the look of SG more than DC but I can see what you're saying. Survivability is important, too, since my own CC units can't take any kind of hit.

I think when I looked at fragiosos before I didn't realize that the cannon was template. I remember being underwhelmed, which would make sense if it was just assault 2 s6 ap- but a template of that is way better!

If you ever want to change things up, the Flesh Tearers Detachment only requires one Troops selection AND we have a Troop Dreadnought in the form of Cassor from the Leviathan book.

Does Cassor have to be Flesh Tearers? I like that initiative boost too much to pass on the BSF, I think. Also I'm not that into Flesh Tearers conceptually.

I have the old metal one I use quite a lot...not as bad ass though.

Hm, yeah, his iron halo looks like Poseidon's crown.

Ever check out the Strike Force Mortalis Formation? Chaplain, 3x DC squads, 2x DC Dreads, Stormraven, all kitted the way you like. If you do MSU you can keep it under 1k no problem.

That's from Exterminatus or Leviathan, right? I will definitely look into that.

 

[TechPr1est]

A bit off topic but

What's the difference between skitarii and cult mechanicus? Like why are they different and have two different codex's?

I am quite interested in starting a mechanicus force but I'm a little confused.

Cheers

 

[MidnightSun]

A bit off topic but

What's the difference between skitarii and cult mechanicus? Like why are they different and have two different codex's?

I am quite interested in starting a mechanicus force but I'm a little confused.

Cheers

Technically they're two different institutions, the Skitarii essentially being the military arm of the Cult Mechanicus but not actually a part of it if I remember correctly, although it's a very sketchy excuse for charging you for two Codexes instead of one. Most people will bring Adeptus Mechanicus armies, which are a combination of Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii and Imperial Knights, some houses of which are sworn to Mars. Basically, in fluff, the Skitarii and the Cult Mechanicus and the Mecanicus-aligned Knights are all allies, not one army, but for some reason that's also been put into the tabletop in a somewhat arbitrary fashion.

 

[Tyriks]

From a tabletop perspective, the Skitarii are cheap and numerous, the mindless drones of the AdMech, whereas the Cult Mechanicus are more expensive and elite (at least, that's the idea, but the electropriests are neither cheap nor elite) to more represent the leaders or specialists of the AdMech. So, the basic Cult troop choice costs more than five times as much per model.

EDIT: But it's important to point out that while the Skitarii elite choices are really hit or miss, the Cult Mech elite choices are best described as miss or miss very, very badly. And since neither army actually has many choices, that means the Cult Mech have 4 viable unit choices (if you want to play anything but a punching bag army), two of which are the same unit with a different gun and one of which Skitarii can bring anyway through the starter set formation. So, I'm not that intrigued at the idea of investing into the Cult Mech all that much right now.

 

[ntaw]

I haven't been all that impressed by hammernators. They just cost so much.

Yeah, I also think they're just too slow to be in a BA army but we'll see how I'm chirping once we finally get the Strike Force treatment.

What's with BA assault terminators costing more but being cheaper to upgrade? That's weird.

That's how it used to be in all the SM books. One day...

I think I like the look of SG more than DC but I can see what you're saying. Survivability is important, too, since my own CC units can't take any kind of hit.

I love my SG squad, but I don't go a game without DC (been working on lists but haven't acted).

I remember being underwhelmed, which would make sense if it was just assault 2 s6 ap- but a template of that is way better!

Yeah, and don't forget Rending! So great.

Does Cassor have to be Flesh Tearers?

He is a Blood Angel option, but anyone gets taken anywhere really. I'll be making up a Moriar the Chosen one day and using his rules.

That's from Exterminatus or Leviathan, right? I will definitely look into that.

All BA/FT Formations are from Exterminatus. The SFM is a lot of fun, and totally why I'm buying two more Dreadnoughts :crazy:

 

[Tyriks]

I love my SG squad, but I don't go a game without DC (been working on lists but haven't acted).

I really want to make DC out of the SG models. I think that would look amazing. But, I probably won't, since they would cost a lot more and be more work that way. Maybe when I'm more confident as a hobbyist.

All BA/FT Formations are from Exterminatus. The SFM is a lot of fun, and totally why I'm buying two more Dreadnoughts :crazy:

I will definitely have to look into that book, then! I might test this out as a standalone force in a small game if I get the chance. Thanks for the help!

 

[Tyriks]

@ntaw, what do you think of the Archangels Sanguine Wing? Since I can get that on the field for about 500 pts (and would currently need a little less questionable proxying) I might give that a shot soon. Free power weapons and reserve rerolls seems pretty nice for that point cost.

EDIT: Well, not that cheap since they need to be 10 man squads, but still.

 

[ntaw]

I think somewhere around 860 is the cheapest it gets. That's 100 points free combi-weapons and 300 points free power weapons....what's not to like? The things that stick out to me:

1) No T1 arrival from DS, soonest charge with those free weapons is T3.

2) Sternguard -have- to be embarked on the Stormraven, which means if they don't disembark when they show up and your opponent has half decent anti-air: good bye combi-weapons.

3) No scatter manipulation for the Vanguard squads without allying in an Inquisitor with servo skulls.

It's a pretty cool Formation but I haven't even bothered proxying it for those three reasons. It's just too many points forced into Reserve for me to want to rock it; I haven't even played my Deathwing in what feels like eons for similar reasons.

Something cool to do with the Sternguard though: fly over two targets you want combi'd, combat squad your unit and Skies of Blood (or whatever it's called now) into two different locations.

 

[MidnightSun]

1) No T1 arrival from DS, soonest charge with those free weapons is T3.

To be fair, it's quite a job to get a charge off before turn 3 for a lot of units anyway. Wraiths, Thunderwolves and Maulerfiends can do a T2 but I don't see T2 charges all that often.

2) Sternguard -have- to be embarked on the Stormraven, which means if they don't disembark when they show up and your opponent has half decent anti-air: good bye combi-weapons.

AV12/12/12 is actually pretty resilient for a Flyer, especially as you don't lose all that much from Jinking when you have PotMS - I wouldn't be confident in taking it down in one turn and that's with a pair of Vendettas and a bunch of ground-pounding TL Lascannons. The Stormraven also has a good profile for getting cover from terrain, which is even better. Sure, it's a risk, and if it does die then all of those Sternguard are getting wrecked, but it's not as fragile a basket to put your eggs in as you might think. In my experience, people aren't really geared up to fight Flying AV12 any more - it's all counter-Flyrant if there's any dedicated AA at all, and if there's any more than that it's still focussed on Razorwings, Stormtalons, Night Scythes, Hemlocks, Crimson Hunters, and the other good AV10/11 planes.

3) No scatter manipulation for the Vanguard squads without allying in an Inquisitor with servo skulls.

Drop Pods! Nah, this is a legitimate concern.

I think that the formation is quite solid, to be honest, you pack a *lot* of threat into some fairly cheap models. It's no Skyhammer, but it's far from bad in its' own way.

 

[Tyriks]

Well, the lack of turn one reserves means I'd get tabled automatically if I brought this as my only forces, right? I might just have to proxy this in with maybe a Skitarii maniple of min sized naked Vanguard units.

 

[ntaw]

To be fair, it's quite a job to get a charge off before turn 3 for a lot of units anyway.

I pretty consistently get T2 charges with my BA. Everything that's worth a spit in combat is either in a Drop Pod or has jump packs. Only thing that stops me from doing it is if an opponent plays their entire force way back in their deployment zone, but that's a pretty rare occurrence. There's usually a few things that move up and act as stepping stones; my favourite are infiltrating units.

I wouldn't be confident in taking it down in one turn and that's with a pair of Vendettas and a bunch of ground-pounding TL Lascannons.

If you're shooting ~12 lascannons at a vehicle and failing I'd wager it's more about some blind dice luck than anything else. She's a sturdy bird, but is she really that sturdy??

Sure, it's a risk, and if it does die then all of those Sternguard are getting wrecked, but it's not as fragile a basket to put your eggs in as you might think.

I don't put infantry into Stormravens when my opponent has decent anti-air unless I want them dead. Things with invulnerable saves sure, if I'm feeling randy, but I've tried it out in scores of games and it has only ever hobbled my attack. Most consistent thing in a Raven for me has been a Furioso and I've been contemplating recently trying out a Libbynaught in a Stormraven casting Technomancy or whatever it's called, but my meta is pretty ruthless toward Fliers so it's a hard sell to me.

In my experience, people aren't really geared up to fight Flying AV12 any more

:laugh: says the guy with a dozen or so lascannons he's willing to toss at one Flier to prove a point? In my experience people are either completely capable of handling AV12 Fliers or they are completely incapable of handling Fliers and ask that you not play them. It all works and doesn't. I wish I could trust 10x combi-toting Sternguard in my lone Flier at 2k, I really do.

Drop Pods! Nah, this is a legitimate concern.

If only!! BA Formations all have stipulations for their stipulations, none of this loose-y goose-y stuff that you C:SM chaps have. Sternguard must be transported by the Stormraven :ireful2:

Well, the lack of turn one reserves means I'd get tabled automatically if I brought this as my only forces, right? I might just have to proxy this in with maybe a Skitarii maniple of min sized naked Vanguard units.

Absolutely. This can't be a standalone force, though with a re-roll you're very likely to come in T2 provided your dice aren't totally mutinous.

 

[MidnightSun]

I pretty consistently get T2 charges with my BA. Everything that's worth a spit in combat is either in a Drop Pod or has jump packs. Only thing that stops me from doing it is if an opponent plays their entire force way back in their deployment zone, but that's a pretty rare occurrence. There's usually a few things that move up and act as stepping stones; my favourite are infiltrating units.

The fact that none of my armies have any of these units that move up and act as stepping stones probably explains a lot about my abysmal W/L ratio.

If you're shooting ~12 lascannons at a vehicle and failing I'd wager it's more about some blind dice luck than anything else. She's a sturdy bird, but is she really that sturdy??

12 Twin Linked Lascannons from 680pts of Vendetta Gunships does *just* enough damage to kill a Stormraven. 12 shots, 9 hits, 4 pens 2 glances, 2 pens 1 glance after Jink.

And I don't have 700pts of dedicated anti-air units.

I don't put infantry into Stormravens when my opponent has decent anti-air unless I want them dead. Things with invulnerable saves sure, if I'm feeling randy, but I've tried it out in scores of games and it has only ever hobbled my attack. Most consistent thing in a Raven for me has been a Furioso and I've been contemplating recently trying out a Libbynaught in a Stormraven casting Technomancy or whatever it's called, but my meta is pretty ruthless toward Fliers so it's a hard sell to me.

Ah, I have the edge on you there as Guard, if a Vendetta bites it then it does about as much damage to the squad inside as a frag grenade - i.e. total unit annihilation. But it's okay, because the squad costs less than a frag grenade and the prospect of jumping some Objective Secured Flamers out where I need them is worth the risk. For Marines, I dunno; I think that it's not that bringing guys in in a Stormraven isn't viable, because it is; it's just that why would you when you can get Drop Pods? You also really need to be delivering a killing punch because for 200pts+ you really need to be more than a Multi Melta and Assault Cannon, excellent anti-air though it is.

:laugh: says the guy with a dozen or so lascannons he's willing to toss at one Flier to prove a point? In my experience people are either completely capable of handling AV12 Fliers or they are completely incapable of handling Fliers and ask that you not play them. It all works and doesn't. I wish I could trust 10x combi-toting Sternguard in my lone Flier at 2k, I really do.

Pah, I throw 2000pts of guns at Flying Hive Tyrants for four consecutive turns and I've still yet to play a game where I kill more than one.

I've mostly found that people can't touch Flyers but there aren't many Flyers in the game that you actually *have* to touch - Flyrants are amazing because you can't ignore them, but FMCs are a different beast; of the actual, AV-statline Flyers in the game, the only one I really care about is Razorwing Jetfighters (because while I can's stop them making 150% of their price back on the turn they enter, I can try and shoot them down before they fire their second load of missiles and get a 300% return on investment) and Night Scythes, because they're going to drop down a unit I can't afford to ignore and then be a nuisance which is what I imagine Sternguard in a Stormraven would do, albeit at much higher price point and as an even bigger threat. The Stormraven's coming in, it's going to delete a tank or flyer, and it's going to drop a bunch of dudes who will push my shit in with shooting into my army. That's something you gotta deal with and it's pretty good at surviving that attention.

If only!! BA Formations all have stipulations for their stipulations, none of this loose-y goose-y stuff that you C:SM chaps have. Sternguard must be transported by the Stormraven :ireful2:

I know, you misunderstand me.

Locator Beacons, amigo.

Absolutely. This can't be a standalone force, though with a re-roll you're very likely to come in T2 provided your dice aren't totally mutinous.

RIP all reserve armies. Sky Serpents, we shall miss thee.

 

[Tyriks]

Man, the Angel's Wrath Intervention formation is ALMOST so good... if it just let you attack immediately after deep strike that would be amazing. But why would I ever deep strike CC units within 6" of enemies just to stand there for a turn?

The only thing I can think of would be a high priority target who is weakened or vulnerable, and just trying to finish them off with the impact and then bolter pistol shooting.

 

[ntaw]

The BA/FT Formations in the SoB:E book range from being the same as the Baal Strike Force so why bother with the specific units to being so close to effective game changers for us. To me that book is the Archangels Detachment for when I want to have Sternguard accompany my Furioso Dreadnoughts and the Strike Force Mortalis if I ever get two more Dreads. There's a FT one that confers Counter Attack and Stubborn which is tempting, but for what units you have to take I still would rather the BSF's +1I all day.

 

[Tyriks]

I'm actually excited about BA again. I have a limit to how much I can spend on Warhammer every month before the wife starts to not be cool with it, but my tax return has a chunk set aside for new models. I was planning on picking up that knight minigame with it, but now I'm leaning more towards a Stormraven and some dreadnoughts. I still want those knights, but they can wait.

I even spent my sparse painting time this week doing test models in different schemes for a homebrew chapter. I think I have settled on one, but I had to strip the model because I tried out a $.90 can of spray paint as primer (worth a shot, right?), and I'm not even mad about it.

 

[ntaw]

I still want those knights, but they can wait.

:laugh: not fer me. $190 CAD when I have some plastic scenery at home already is too good to pass up. Add in my buddy just gave me his Chaos army from 3rd/4th edition...that's a Freeblade for my Imperial army and a Renegade for any Chaos hordes I amass.

Granted, I have 5k in BA already :grin:

GW have to be getting around to BA eventually, the Codex isn't terribad and it only stands to get better with the rumoured FAQs incoming and GWs own admittance that the stat differences between SM and BA will be addressed officially. Splash some Strike Force Formation stuff and we'll be tits. I really want a BA Libby Conclave. Didn't even realize I had four until recently cuz I never really play them.