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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need some help from some of the better BA players out there. I'm not liking the new book at all. Sure, Matt Ward gave us some OP options, I just feel like anything I can do with this codex, SW and Codex Marines already do better. I'm sure it's good an all to the right player, I'm just having a hard time finding the best way to make it fit my playstyle/models I own. I was going to write out a list of my BA models but... let's just say I have no shortage of models.

What I want is a 1750 list that will be competitive in a xenos rich environment. Top tiers being DE and Nids. Plenty of others mixed in as well though.

I've never run deathstar armies before, but I had an idea using Dante, 10x Sang Guard with a Banner, a JP Libbie, and a JP Sang Priest. With upgrades it comes out to 755 points. Is it any good? Is there better? What else should I field? I was thinking two melta ASM squads in pods and two flamered out tacticals in pods, but what else? I need help! I hate this book for making me take scouts and tacticals!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Flying hive tyrants. Usually two in a list. Sometimes more. Bastards.

I've got a crap heap of assault marines. Both foot and jump. I don't like that the stormraven is the only reliable anti-air we've got. I'm not opposed to allies, I'm just trying to keep some flavor. I've never really used death company, but here is just the elites and hq's from my inventory...

HQ (Character):
Mephiston
Sanguinar
Astorath

HQ (Generic):
2x Chaplain w/ Bolt Pistol
2x Chaplain w/ Bolt Pistol & JP
Chaplain w/ Storm Bolter & JP
Librarain w/ Sword, Bolt Pistol and JP
Librarian w/ Axe, Plasma Pistol and JP
Librarian Dreadnought
2x Sang Priest w/ Bolt Pistol and JP
2x Sang Priest w/ Lightning Claw and JP
2x Sang Priest w/ Powersword, Bolt Pistol, and JP
Captain w/ 2x Lightning Claw and JP
Captain w/ Plasma Pistol, Powerfist and JP
Techmarine w/ Plasma Pistol

Elites:
10x JP Vanguard (4x CCW/Plasma Pistol, 6x Powersword/Boltpistol)
10x Sang Guard (1x PF, 4x Axe, 4x Sword, 1x Sword/Banner)
15x TH/SS Terminators
20x Foot Death Co (10x CCW/BP, 5x Poweraxe, 5x Powersword)
3x Furioso w/ Powerfists
1x Furioso w/ Fragcannon (Magnetized for Blood Talons)
1x Furioso w/ Blood Talons
2x Death Co Dread w/ Powerfists
1x Death Co Dread w/ Blood Talons

Normally in my lists I don't spend much on HQs. I'm more of a spammer and like to bring lots of mediocre toys. The more I read into this book and all the supplements I'm realizing that BA are going to cost me some points per unit to be good.
 

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Im not sure how many of these units you have or if you can bring Forge World but my list when running Blood Angles is:

HQ:
-Mephiston
-Sanguinary Priest w/ Melta bombs

Elites:
-Terminators x5 w/ TH/SS Land Raider Crusader w/ Multi-melta

Troop:
-Tactical x5 w/ plasma, combi-plasma, razorback w/ las-plas
-Tactical x5 w/ plasma, combi-plasma, razorback w/ las-plas
-Tactical x10 w/ Melta gun, Combi-melta Melta bombs, Heavy flamer, Drop Pod

Heavy Support:
-Fire Raptor
-Sicaran battle tank w/ Schism of Mars
-Sicaran battle tank

Although I've had a lot of success with this list it was never built to be ultra-competitive. It should do fine at most level local tournament though. The HQs ride with the terminators in the Crusader. The "Fire Raper" should be able to take care of most things flying as well as wrecking anything MEQ or less on the ground. The two Sicaran are great for putting wounds on MC and poping transports their specialty being Wave Serpent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I've got the book, but not the FW models. That does sound like a pretty sick list though.

I also had another idea. I'm not sure if it'll work, but I've been tossing around the idea of mixing Captain Karlaen and his re-rollable reserve warlord trait and the Nemisis Strike Force from the Grey Knights codex allowing me to roll deepstrike reserves starting turn one for a full army alpha strike. Here's the list I just whupped up.

Blood Angels CAD
160 Karlaen

125 5x Tac (Melta, Combi-Melta)
125 5x Tac (Melta, Combi-Melta)

35 Drop Pod
35 Drop Pod
35 Drop Pod

Nemesis Strike Force
110 Librarian

207 5x Terminator (DH, 3x Falchion, Psycannon)

306 10x Purifier (2x DH, 4x Falchion, 4x Incinerator)
306 10x Purifier (2x DH, 4x Falchion, 4x Incinerator)
306 10x Purifier (2x DH, 4x Falchion, 4x Incinerator)

=1750

I'm not really sure if it'll work the way I'm expecting it to or not. I know Karlaen will let me reroll all reserve rolls regardless of faction, but the Nemisis SF will only allow me to roll deepstrike reserves for units in that detachment starting from turn one. So with purifiers in a blood angel drop pod, am I rolling for deepstrike reserves for the Puries, the pod, or both?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I think it might work...

Drop Pod Assault: "Drop pods and units embaked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

Rites of Teleportation: "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

Strategic Genius: "...whislt your Warlord is alive, you can re-roll any Reserve Rolls (failed or successful)."

So I'd drop pod assault the tacticals and a purifier pod, then roll/re-roll for the other two purifiers and terminators (with Karlaen) turn one for a nasty turn one Incinerator, melta, psycannon, and Cleansing Flame attack. I will combat squad out of the pods with the purifiers to add more psychic dice and more opportunities for cleansing flame.
 

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So with purifiers in a blood angel drop pod, am I rolling for deepstrike reserves for the Puries, the pod, or both?
You're rolling for the Pod, unless you can come up with an instance where you roll for Reserves based on what's inside the transport....? (I don't think it exists)

The Pod, despite holding GKs, is not from the GK Detachment but from the BA one and therefore does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation. If they were GK Pods with GK infantry inside you'd be set.
 

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Yeah I don't think that would work either. Also if you are taking Karlaen just for Strategic Genius you may be better off taking a defense line with a comms relay. If you want to mix GK and BA I would take some Dreadknights and Brother Captain Stern w/ a large unit of TH/SS terminators (2++ saves).
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
You're rolling for the Pod, unless you can come up with an instance where you roll for Reserves based on what's inside the transport....? (I don't think it exists)

The Pod, despite holding GKs, is not from the GK Detachment but from the BA one and therefore does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation. If they were GK Pods with GK infantry inside you'd be set.
That's how I originally understood it too until I really looked at the wording on Drop Pod Assault and Rites of Teleportation. RoT's only limits is that the unit has to be in Deepstrike Reserve and part of the Detachment. The rule for DPA states that the unit embarked on the DP is in Deepstrike Reserves.

Adding to the mayhem, the BRB on pg 135 describes Combined Reserve Rolls as "you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."

So with rules as written,
Drop Pod Assault causes the Purifiers to be held officially in Deepstrike Reserve.
Rites of Teleportation targets the Purifiers solely for being in Deepstrike Reserve.
Combined Reserve Rolls forces the Purifiers and Pod to arrive together.

I would normally tend to agree with you guys, it's just that the way the rules are worded creates a loophole.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I also really like the idea about TH/SS with sanctuary. Never thought about that one before. That's sweet!
 

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EDIT: I guess to put it as simply as I can, just because they're in Reserve together doesn't mean they're from the same Detachment. Rites specifically states the unit must be from that Detachment, with no stipulations or allowances for anything from another Detachment under any circumstances.
 

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Ok so not I'm not really sure about the drop pod thing. In my mind there is enough ambiguity that it is ultimately up to your opponent or the TO. Here is what I would do for your list.

BA:

HQ
-Sanguinary Priest

Elites
- Terminators x10 - TH/SS

Troop
-Tac squad x5 - Drop Pod
-Scout Squad x5 - no upgrades

Fast Attack
-Drop Pod
-Drop Pod

GK:

HQ
-Brother-Captain Stern

Elites
-Purifiers x10 - 2 halberds, 2 DH, 2 swords, 4 incinerators
-Purifiers x10 - 2 halberds, 2 DH, 2 swords, 4 incinerators

Troop
Terminators x5 - no upgrades

Fortification:
-Aegis Defense Line - Comms Relay

1748

Stern and the Priest go with the TH/SS Terminators. Scout Squad is behind the defense line manning the Comms relay. Both Purifier squads go in the Drop Pods and come in first turn. I would combat squad the Purifiers for psychic dice out the ass. The tac squad waits till later in the game to grab an objective.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
EDIT: I guess to put it as simply as I can, just because they're in Reserve together doesn't mean they're from the same Detachment. Rites specifically states the unit must be from that Detachment, with no stipulations or allowances for anything from another Detachment under any circumstances.
What allows me to pull something from another attachment with them is the rules for Combined Reserves on pg 135 of the rule book. If Rites stated "only units comprised entirely of models from this detachment", then that argument would be correct. But Rites goes even further in the other direction by saying "you can make reserve rolls for ANY unit in this detachment that is placed in deep strike reserve". The same rule also allows me to bring an IC from another detachment with a unit of GK (as long as he has deepstrike). Combined Reserves allows both units to come in together.

Is the unit in deepstrike reserve? Check.
Is the unit being targeted (Purifiers) from the NSF detachment? Sure is.
Does being embarked on a transport of any kind while in Deepstrike Reserve somehow make the unit untargetable? Not in the least.
Do I have to bring the Drop Pod in after targeting the Purifiers with Rites? Absolutley.

I've looked. Hard. I can't find any rule that stops this from happening. I've seen a lot of boards where people say things like "you roll for the drop pod" and things like that, but none of the nay-sayers can seem to provide references for why this won't work. You came the closest when you said that the Pod and Purifiers aren't from the same detachment and Rites only targets units from that detachment. This is all true. Rites only targets the Purifiers. 40k rules cause the pod to follow suit because they are embarked on it.

I really don't want to seem like I'm being super stubborn because I really respect your input, but in this case the rules seem very clear when you read them all together. From what I've seen is most people on other boards confuse the rules when they try to add in ideas that just aren't written verbatim in the relevant text.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok so not I'm not really sure about the drop pod thing. In my mind there is enough ambiguity that it is ultimately up to your opponent or the TO. Here is what I would do for your list.

BA:

HQ
-Sanguinary Priest

Elites
- Terminators x10 - TH/SS

Troop
-Tac squad x5 - Drop Pod
-Scout Squad x5 - no upgrades

Fast Attack
-Drop Pod
-Drop Pod

GK:

HQ
-Brother-Captain Stern

Elites
-Purifiers x10 - 2 halberds, 2 DH, 2 swords, 4 incinerators
-Purifiers x10 - 2 halberds, 2 DH, 2 swords, 4 incinerators

Troop
Terminators x5 - no upgrades

Fortification:
-Aegis Defense Line - Comms Relay

1748

Stern and the Priest go with the TH/SS Terminators. Scout Squad is behind the defense line manning the Comms relay. Both Purifier squads go in the Drop Pods and come in first turn. I would combat squad the Purifiers for psychic dice out the ass. The tac squad waits till later in the game to grab an objective.
That's a badass deathstar. I like how you mixed in the Purifier Pods too. I haven't tried it yet, I just know that cleansing flame is a beast and works great in my other army. I just imagine it would be twice as effective on the drop before the opponent spreads out.
 

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Play it the way you play you want brother, these conversations kill my love of this game more than anything GW could do. I play both of these armies but wouldn't go through all of that explaining to a TO or opponent to make what, one more drop pod potentially show up T1? Not worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This is very true. I couldn't see me showing up to a store and try this out cold because of the hour long argument that would happen. The only way I would try that is if I got it cleared days ahead of time with whomever was putting on the tourney. Luckily my group hosts our own events and there are pretty much 3 of us that are the rules lawyers of the group and serve as rotating TOs while playing (never in our own game though). I know that I can get a little anal about rules and loopholes from time to time because I spent so much time playing Magic before I could afford to really dig into 40k and it's all about exploiting rules. I just hope I didn't come across as too big of an ass. It's hard to judge what tone my posts will be read in on here. Just know that I'm still one of your biggest fans and I'll definitely need your input on different things for a very long time.
 

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No worries man, I don't think you're an ass :drinks:

More and more recently I'm seeing that there's so many rabbit holes for a guy like me (with slight obsessive tendencies) to run down with rules and wordings that I spend more time thinking about the damn game than just enjoying it. I've been trying to force a calm over my need to get things just right with this game....cuz it's a game. Did GW intend for GK to teleport Drop Pods into battle after leaving them out of the 'dex? Maybe not. Did they completely fuck up the clarity of their wording, enabling people obsessed with rules will find and try to navigate (on both sides of 'right')? Hells yea.

I gotta stop getting involved in fiddly rules discussions with people I'm not actually playing the game with :laugh:

As for killing xenos...Jump troops of your flavour (gold, black, red) backed by Baal Predators have always done me well. I still think I'd take Death Company over Sanguinary Guard, though since I miss my Reclusiarch and would include Astorath it could be pricey.
 
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