[OIIIIIIO]

This I came across while looking through the BA codex. In the Honour Guard for a HQ choice you can upgrade one of the HG to a Blood Champion, he gets a PW and a combat shield. Now since it does not replace his current gear I am thinking that this is in addition to his wargear that he has. Makes sense as it is the cost of a PW and combat shield for a Sargent.

If this is correct, then he now has a BP, Chainsword, PW, and a combat shield. Now can he trade in his chainsword and BP for a PF and a plasma pistol, respectively? This would mean that this one guy could be set up to destroy just about anything. He could kill tanks with the PF or wade into CC with the PW and Plasma pistol. I think that it may be a really horrendous thing to do but, my god it would be very versatile. Or am I reading something incorrectly.

 

[Blueberrypop]

From what I ready any member can replace his bolter, bolt pistol, or chain sword with wargear. Seeing how the champion already carries a power weapon as for the plasma pistol I am not sure because even though he has a storm shield he keeps his bolt pistol if I'm not mistaken.

 

[DeathKlokk]

It can be argued that once he is upgraded to a Blood Champion he is no longer a "Honor Guard" since the BC has it's own statline and name. So the options listed as "any Honor Guard..." can no longer be used by that model.

 

[Blueberrypop]

I suppose it's just like a Furioso Librarian

 

[OIIIIIIO]

Interesting ... had not thought of that. This comes to mind then ... If you put the Plasma pistol and Power fist on him before you ugrade him then he would still gain the PW and the combat shield.

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

... If you put the Plasma pistol and Power fist on him before you ugrade him then he would still gain the PW and the combat shield.

I have always believed that all army list choices are mode simultaneously, i.e. upgrades produce the same end result in whichever order they are applied.

I cannot immediately find any rule that explicitly says that that is correct.

 

[Aramoro]

The BA FAQ of the Librarian Furioso seems to say something like that. The order of buying Wargear seems to have no effect. Otherwise you'd be able to by a magna grapple for your Libby Dread.

Aramoro

 

[OIIIIIIO]

Here's the thing with the Libby dread ... it says that it exchanges all gear with ...blah blah blah. The Blood Champion doesn't have that wording. I am so not trying to be difficult, I just want to get this right ... one way or the other.

 

[Aramoro]

That was just an example of the fact the order you purchase wargear in being irrelevant.

As for your question I would say no you cannot do it. You upgrade a dude to Blood Champion he is no longer an Honour Guard but rather a Blood Champion so hes not eligible for any other upgrades.

Aramoro

 

[jaws900]

It says "Any Honor Guard can replace...."
He isn't a Honor guard anymore. He's a Blood Champion so alas the only thing you cna give him is a Jump pack(along with the rest of the unit)

 

[don_mondo]

I have always believed that all army list choices are mode simultaneously, i.e. upgrades produce the same end result in whichever order they are applied.

I cannot immediately find any rule that explicitly says that that is correct.

Ork FAQ goes the other way:

If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas
with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a
big choppa?

You may upgrade the Nob to have a big
choppa or power klaw before you choose to
upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case
the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon
swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap),
does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga
and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
happier that way!

Fixed it for ya.

-DK :victory:

 

[SHarrington]

I have always believed that all army list choices are mode simultaneously, i.e. upgrades produce the same end result in whichever order they are applied.

I cannot immediately find any rule that explicitly says that that is correct.

The BA FAQ of the Librarian Furioso seems to say something like that. The order of buying Wargear seems to have no effect. Otherwise you'd be able to by a magna grapple for your Libby Dread.

Aramoro

I think the biggest problem is there are multiple instances where order does and does not matter.
I'll provide you one which is clearly laid out, one that was faq'd to show order does matter, and one that shows it doesn't matter, in that order.

#1 Tyranid Codex, Hive Tyrants. You can swap out your default sword/whip for scything talons. You can then go on to swap out either or both sets of talons for guns.
In this case, if you didn't swap out for talons first, you couldn't get a second gun. Order matters.

#2 Ork Codex, Boyz. A boy can be upgraded to a Nobz which allows him to change out his weapons. Then you swap out the whole mob to shootas, but it skips the nob because he no longer has a choppa.
Order matters. In this case you can buy equipment before upgrading. (There is FAQ stating this)

#3 According to the FAQ, the Furioso's order does not matter. You can buy it all the upgrades, but when you convert to a furioso, you lose them all.


So in summary, all we can assume is that each and every single case is different since GW seems to be arbitrarily changing the ways things work, providing no consisitency in their rules system.

Assume everything is possible. Otherwise your going to be unpleasently surprised after each and EVERY faq release.

 

[jaws900]

@SHarrington

Tho you are wright i must poitn out some things. First of all both the Tyranid Codex and the BA codex are 5th edition codex's and the Ork on is 4th. The FAQ is also 4th edition(as far as i know)
Also the Hive Tyrant syas that this can be done in it's profile hence the "Swpa 1 or both sets" impluing that it can swap 1 of them tho it also says that they can not be exhanged after that.
Also the Blood Champion is from the same Codex as the Furioso and one would assume that All BA's (and other Marine chapters too) would act the same way.

People have debated about this for so long it really boars me more than annoys me now. The bottom line is that unless the Codex or FAQ say otherwise then the order doesn't matter at all and what matters is the end product.

 

[OIIIIIIO]

@SHarrington

Tho you are wright i must poitn out some things. First of all both the Tyranid Codex and the BA codex are 5th edition codex's and the Ork on is 4th. The FAQ is also 4th edition(as far as i know)
Feb 2010
Also the Hive Tyrant syas that this can be done in it's profile hence the "Swpa 1 or both sets" impluing that it can swap 1 of them tho it also says that they can not be exhanged after that.
Not sure about this ... spell check might help, not being mean but I have noticed this on many of your posts.
Also the Blood Champion is from the same Codex as the Furioso and one would assume that All BA's (and other Marine chapters too) would act the same way.
Correct, they are from the same codex. However completly different units, hence the reason I was asking.

People have debated about this for so long it really boars me more than annoys me now. The bottom line is that unless the Codex or FAQ say otherwise then the order doesn't matter at all and what matters is the end product.

Sorry my question bores you, but you chose to have input to it. I only had something come to mind about a setup that could be pretty nasty, and was asking about what everyone else thought about it.

 

[jaws900]

No it doesn't bore me to answer your questions at all. It just bores me with the argument in general and i often prefre to throw my 2 cents in instead of saying like i'm quoting from a holy book. I just say what i belive to be the Right/best way to play. I never mean any offence at all.

As for my spelling. I have Aspergus Sysdrome and stuggle with basic english spelling and grammer. Even a spell cheaker doen't work as many of my grammer and even some speeling get thoguth like using the wrong type of Their/there. Also i'm lazy and often don't have time/can't be bothered to spell cheak everything(unless it's a full fleged articles like my WD reviews that will be spell cheaked from now on). Besindes i don't like hiding who I am, for all my faults and skills and the like. It's just me(Tho thought many years of bullying i had got good at hiding my emotions from plain sight)

Sorry getting a little of topic here now and gusshing too much.

Anyway, my 2 cents is to treat it as that he can't take them as atleast 2/3rd of people would agree in this point and it's better to be in the majorty here. also talk with it with your oppoent or even ref to find out there opions/rules on it and make changes to the lsit accoringly befroe you start. Or even write up 2 variates of your list, 1 with the upgrades and 1 without and depending on your oppoents views you can use the other list you have all ready.

 

[SHarrington]

Also the Hive Tyrant syas that this can be done in it's profile hence the "Swpa 1 or both sets" impluing that it can swap 1 of them tho it also says that they can not be exhanged after that.

I'm going to try to translate this:

Also the Hive Tyrant says that this can be done in it's profile hence the "Swap one or both sets" implying that it can swap one of them though it also says that they can not be exhanged after that.

I think this is what he was trying to say. It's wrong. But it's my best guess as to his post.
No where in the entry, page, chapter, or codex does it say "that they can not be exhanged after that."
Sorry, I'm assuming you aren't actually looking at the entry and are going either on memory or word of mouth from someone else.

Next, having units in the same codex does not guarantee consistency by any means.
I can tell you why, but you probably won't believe me. So I will prove it by an experiment.
I triple dog dare you to create a rules post that asks this question, "Does Hive Commander and/or Alien Cunning work while the model itself is in reserves?"
If you go by consisitency, then no it won't, as Lictors and Deathleaper don't. But just see how vehement the argument becomes if you actually ask it.

Don't take my word for it. Prove it to yourself. Consistency does not exist, even in the same codex.

The only assumption you can ever safely make, with regards to GW, is that your assumptions can be wrong.

Now for the Orks. As my friend Tal mentioned, the FAQ I quoted from is from this year. I won't bore you with my belief that the Ork Codex was the first 5th edition codex, even if it did come out 6 months before 5th edition did. A topic for another time and place.


Tal, playing by RAW, I see absolutely no problem adding his weapons first, then upgrading him.
It doesn't say he has to upgraded first, and it doesn't replace his wargear. I could bore you with my RAI interpretation, but it doesn't hold water to the RAW.
Go for it man!

 

[genesis108]

The way I play it is a BC is still an HG, he just has a PW/BP/Combat Shield as base. And like the other Sergeants that come with a Power Weapon, can upgrade to a PF or whatnot at the reduced price, and can replace his BP as normal. Is this the wrong way to do it..maybe, but I have not had anybody complain about it yet.

See the Vanguard Entry on BA Codex pg 92 for my precedence.

I treat it as the PW replacing the Chainsword, and being armed with a Bolt Pistol and Combat Shield on his arm..and if I choose to swap the PW, do so at the reduced point cost(point difference). You are essentially paying the same points, but avoiding contraversy..here is why:

Upgrade the Veteran to a Blood Champion - N Points
--Equipped with a Power Weapon and Combat shield
Essentially you are paying 5 points for the +1 WS and Combat Shield + the cost of the PW, M points
--PF costs X points
-- X - M = Point Difference/Reduced cost for weapon upgrade from PW to PF

So you are paying the 5 points for the +1 WS and CS + your CCW of choice is how I have understood it, SHOULD you choose to change the PW, which I usually don't.

 

[Blueberrypop]

The way I play it is a BC is still an HG.

once he becomes a Blood Champion he is no long an "Honour Guard", he has a separate stat line once he is a champion he can only take a jump pack.

They become another unit even though they are part of an Honour Guard. Just like a scout sargent can not utilize his higher BS and take the heavy bolter or missile launcher because it states that one scout can take it and he is a scout sargent and has a separate stat line in his profile.

You can do whatever you want as long as your opponent agrees.

 

[Aramoro]

The way I play it is a BC is still an HG, he just has a PW/BP/Combat Shield as base. And like the other Sergeants that come with a Power Weapon, can upgrade to a PF or whatnot at the reduced price, and can replace his BP as normal. Is this the wrong way to do it..maybe, but I have not had anybody complain about it yet.

No matter which way it works this is the wrong way to do it.

I we say order does matter then you can buy an Honour Guard a Power Fist at the Power Fist price and then Upgrade him to Blood Champion. So 45pts all told.

If you Upgrade him to Blood Champion you cannot then buy him a Power Fist as he is no longer an Honour Guard and has no options. In the same way the Sanguinary Novitiate cannot buy any upgrades as there are none available to him.

I believe in the BA codex that order does not matter and that you would have to be able to purchase upgrades in a random order and still be legal every time for it to be right. A Blood Champion cannot buy a Power Fist, so if you have a Blood Champion with a Power Fist something has gone wrong.

Aramoro

 

[Dave T Hobbit]

...you would have to be able to purchase upgrades in a random order and still be legal every time for it to be right.

I agree; unless the rules indicate order matters then any order must produce the same result.

The general theory behind when it does or does to matter appears to be whether or not you are changing the model to a different model; for example, upgrade a Ork to be a Nob he is now a Nob not an Ork so is separate for Ork options whereas a Hive Tyrant with extra claws is still a Hive Tyrant so can still use the original Hive Tyrant options.

If you could keep the options from previous changes of the model's fundamental nature you could produce impossible models by adding and removing upgrades: an example, a Khorne Lord on Palanquin with Bolt of Change and Lash produced by buying a Mark and then upgrading then removing the Mark and buying another Mark.