Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What is the general consensus regarding assault space marines and vanguard?

Are they not worth it for shooty style armies? Not that it has any bearing on the actual table top game, but i remember the various builds in dow2 which relegated asm to anti platform measure; rather than be an effective melee component in it's own right (too expensive to be worth getting shot up in open field).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,851 Posts
From what I've seen, people prefer to have Assault Marines inside a transport, rather than with Jump Packs; I have no idea why anyone would do this, it seems stupid to me.

Frankly I think that ASM are great.
Not too sure about Vanguard though, it's about 30 points a model if you give them Jump Packs, which I think is not too bad, but they can get some nice goodies if you want to pay for it.

I'd usually go for ASM, unless I planned to use the Heroic Intervention, or I was going to put them in a transport (then they're a lot better for only the cost of the transport extra).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,122 Posts
Vanguard are not that great unless your blood angels. They are expensive for what they do and only the Heroic intervention is worth it, but scattering the the problem. BA's have reduced scatter so not as many problems with using Heroic intervention.

Assault Marines are good but agian used more with BA since they are troops for them, that asnd you get 5 per box compared to 10 per box for the same price, so many people will ignore them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,851 Posts
Vanguard are not that great unless your blood angels. They are expensive for what they do and only the Heroic intervention is worth it, but scattering the the problem. BA's have reduced scatter so not as many problems with using Heroic intervention.

Assault Marines are good but agian used more with BA since they are troops for them, that asnd you get 5 per box compared to 10 per box for the same price, so many people will ignore them.
First of all, Blood Angels Vanguard Vets do not have Descent of Angels.
It's fucking weird, but they don't.

Second, what the hell are you talking about?
There' only 1 box set, and it's 5 Assault Marines, there is no Blood Angels ASM box.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,182 Posts
Assault marines are probably better than vangaurd point for point. Other than the deep strike rule they die just as quickly, although the ability to upgrade them to carry better weaponry would make them a interesting choice in larger games.

Anybody ever chosen vangaurd and got them to work?

As for Assault marines being worth it in a shooty army. I'd probably think the points could be better spent somewhere else. If you want a good counter attack unit assault terminators maybe an option, although they do have limted movement compared to ASM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,851 Posts
I think something don't think about is the possibility of Heroic Intervention'ing VanVets next to a Locator Beacon equipped Drop Pod.
You don't scatter, there is no risk, you have more than a 12" threat radius from the Drop Pod, and your enemy cannot stop it at all.

*quickedit*
Except for killing the Pod, or having a LSStorm nearby, gotta love that jamming beacon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,094 Posts
ANY Blood Angel with a Jump Pack gets Descent of Angels.

I LOVE my Assault Marines! I get all hot and bothered adding up my attacks! Certainly many who get serious about the 'best builds' might/do think they are no use, but it really depends on style. I'm sure that someone good at the game (IE not me) could come up with a kick-face Jump Pack build. It all goes in phases; at the mo it's all Mech, but when someone finds a new wrinkle, and they always do, then everyone else follows this new discovery.
For a shooty-style army, it might be useful to have a unit that can move around over terrain, to set up shots into the side/rear of vehicles, or to get into the face of a unit on an objective.

GFP
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,122 Posts
First of all, Blood Angels Vanguard Vets do not have Descent of Angels.
It's fucking weird, but they don't.

Second, what the hell are you talking about?
There' only 1 box set, and it's 5 Assault Marines, there is no Blood Angels ASM box.
"In addition, a Blood Angels modal with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule" (pg62 - Blood Angles codex, Under Jump packs)

If they have one they gain the special rule, same applys to death company and is only not lsited on there profiel as they don't automatically come with jump packs.
I however did get the second part slightly wrong. My main point was that a unit of 10 normal marines cost £22.50. A unit of 10 Assualt Marines will set you back £36. My point was that gettign jump marines was expensive and most people instead use normal marines or converted marines to reposent assault marines without jump packs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,851 Posts
"In addition, a Blood Angels modal with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule" (pg62 - Blood Angles codex, Under Jump packs)

If they have one they gain the special rule, same applys to death company and is only not lsited on there profiel as they don't automatically come with jump packs.
*snip*
Oh wait, in the Jump Pack thing in the armoury, says they get it.
Awesome.
I figured it out myself :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,539 Posts
I'm going to explain why Assault Marines and Vanguard kinda suck for Codex Marines. This is only in reference to Codex Marines and does not include Blood Angels, or Assault Marines in any other army.

Firstly, the normal Space Marine Codex is primarily good at making shooting armies. About the only truly awesome assault unit in the Codex is Assault Terminators. Other than that, you just get a lot of average. Thus, most people that want to have an assault element in their Codex Marine army will take the most potent assault unit available (i.e. not Assault Marines).

Secondly, Assault Squads use Fast Attack choices. Fast Attack slots are usually better used on Land Speeders or Attack Bikes because both of these units bring extremely mobile melta weaponry to the table which is something that most armies require nowadays to have any realistic chance of cracking tough armored targets.

Third, Assault Squads aren't cheap. A minimum sized unit is basically useless because no matter how many upgrades you give them, 5 Space Marines on their own just aren't that tough and they will die, probably pretty quickly too. A larger squad is more resilient, but then suffers from costing more points and still only being decent at close combat. Assault Squads are better than Tactical Marines at close combat but give up the ability to get a heavy weapon, don't have bolters, can't take melta weapons (which are pretty much the best special weapon available) and have a habit of falling back entirely too far when using Combat Tactics because of their jump packs.

Vanguard take all of the problems that Assault Squads have and magnify them. If you want them to have jump packs they start getting expensive and that's before increasing the squad size or giving them any sort of close combat upgrades. Even if you go nuts and buy everybody a power weapon or something, they're still not as potent an assault unit as a squad of Terminators and aren't half as resilient due to their inferior armor save. Vanguard also eat up a Fast Attack slot just like normal Assault Marines and manage to cost even more points while doing it. Vanguard have no access to decent ranged weapon upgrades unless you have some strange requirement for a unit with a ton of plasma pistols in which case I suppose they could be useful for that.

All in all, if you want an army that uses a lot of models with jump packs use the Blood Angel Codex. Codex: Space Marines is not designed for this and your army will suffer as a result. If you're just looking to include a single unit of jump packers in your army, be absolutely certain that you don't require the Fast Attack slot and that you have all of your other bases covered before spending points on Assault Squads.

Hope this helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,851 Posts
Oh yeah, if I were to include ASM, it wouldn't be as a primary force, but rather a support unit for squads in need, and good for harrying important units, like Troops looking to grab that objective, or a delicious shooty unit just hanging out.
I did forget about the present importance of Attack Bikes and Speeders, but they aren't exactly necessary, just that mainstream strategy (for good reason, obviously).

As I said, I would only ever take VanVets if I intended to use Heroic Interloltion, or wanted to give the unit a transport (and not have an expensive option like Terminators or Honour Guard).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
500 Posts
First of all, Blood Angels Vanguard Vets do not have Descent of Angels.
It's fucking weird, but they don't.

Second, what the hell are you talking about?
There' only 1 box set, and it's 5 Assault Marines, there is no Blood Angels ASM box.
It states in the codex all models with jump packs have descent of angels it's in the equipment section
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
ASM sargeants cost 28 pts and a van vet with a jump pack costs 30 pts but also has heroic intervention. in that sense it doesn't sound so illogical (comparing the 2 units). a van vet squad with five members, jump packs, a relic blade and two power weapons is 220 pts. which sounds pretty good to me if you don't want to fork out close to 500 pts for a mobile assault unit (termies in LR). take a devestator squad with 4 ML's and a drop-pod with locator beacon, deploy devestators normally and drop the pod in turn 1 somewhere close to an objective or something. or you could get a dread for the pod. anyway that's my opinion
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top