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i think Ascendant is right...you hit it right on the mark. Also whats with all the rage to quote a quote i saw somwhere here on this site "its a game about war, not a war about a game"
 

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Your calculations fail, like you do. I play with high elves and the reality is, it's crap and not worth playing, watching even good players move forwards without a care in the world for being charged, ASF was a very rare often exclusively one item per army ability, HE got it for their whole army and you don't think that is broken?
Whoa whoa whoa. What's with the personal attacks? Hell, mate, I know Adding up and probability could be a little advanced for you, but saying I fail, because I prooved you can't do maths... Jesus that's low. Not to mention pretty cowardly, over the internet. I play AGAINST High Elves, and yes, at first, it was a strange thing realising that I was actually losing models when I charged, but when I LEARNED TO PLAY, I realised that it wasn't that broken. ASF used to be a Rare commodity. Now, though, it's not. Deal with it. Shit moves on, you don't. Literally, you snooze, you lose. No sympathy. High Elves have for their entire army. Now, let's look what's good about their army... Ah yes, Swordmasters. Lose ASF - you get 2 Attacks, that Strike last at WS6, with a 3+ AS and a 5+ Armour. White Lions have a 5+ AS (3+ versus Range), and a single Str6 attack, that strikes last. Phoenix Guard have 1 Str 4 attack. Absolutely amazing, considering they're all T3, and negated by a Great Weapon. Quit yo jibberjabber/whining, and move on with your life. I've noiced that in the year or so I've been on the board, and each time this argument has come up (I used to think like you did), but when I was told the exact same facts, I actually tried something new out, did what I was suggested, and didn't go "Yeah, but still, It's broken, bawwww". You're really beginning to get on my tits. Everyone's allowed an opinion, just don't whine about it.

I hardly think that TK are a shooting army with Bs2 5+ to hit, unless you take Khalida, but special characters opens up a whole new kettle of fish.....
BS2 isn't anything major, but when most armies are BS3 and hit on 5's, but you're BS2, and you're still hitting on 5's, regardless of cover, skirmish, long range etc, you're hitting on 5's, when others are hitting on 8's. Special Characters enhance an army. No issue with taking them personally. You don't like to take them, fair by you. Fuck if I'm doing it though, because it doesn't agree with your morals.

You and most high elf players whine about how vulnerable your precious elves are without even considering how weak some armies units are, my spearmen cost not much less than your swordsmasters, have similar stats yadda yadda. As for the ressurection of my undead, 1d6 skeletons ressurected will hardly get me anywhere, especially considering how easy TK magic is to counter for most teams, esp HE....
Funnily enough, I'm primarily Chaos Mortals. You want to talk Fragility? Hows about Marauders, or Fast Cavalry that's nearly as expensive as most armies Heavy Cavalry? Spearmen? What... Around 10 Points a Model, 4+ Armour Save, Undead, Can get replenished automatically, can attack twice a turn, you forget what you're on about. And TK magic isn't that easy counter - especially if you max it out, which, being a ranged army, should be priority. I'd always go for a Liche High Priest over Tomb King.

As for TK chariots, D3 S4 hits are crap, esp for the 'bargain' price of 45 points a model, they rarely survive to get into combat before being shot down by bolt throwers in quick fashion.
You think anybody elses Chariots are any better for being shot down, and at 150points a piece? Get a proper argument, especially considering that the Chariots can be restored.

I also said MANY armies can make gunlines, not all, you fail, once again, nice way to misread what I wrote.
Oh shit, did I choose to ignore something plain in my face? That reminds me of someone, funnily enough.

Did I mention a mark of nurgle and all of those other wonderful upgrades you've piled on to units? No I was comparing two stock units to one another at base value, we can get into items but then it becomes an endless cycle of theory crafting, you clearly spend too much time here and too little time actually playing, I would love to beat your face in, but seeing as its the internet I'll have to settle for ignoring your retarded ass.
Again, what's the fucking issue with 'stock unit counters stock unit with X'. Who the fuck really chooses a stock unit in a proper list. Theory Crafting? Welcome to Warhammer Fantasy, the game where you can customize your troops. But because it complicated matters, let's just settle for doing base units, because, you know everyone takes Base units to a GT.

ASF was a quick fix to an army which needed help, rather than a more comprehensive solution which actually made sense, not to mention just how much the ASF contradicts warhammer tactics.
Warhammer Tactics? What the fuck do you know about tactics? Oh I know, let's charge some shit unit into the front of a unit that has ASF. Nice idea trying to bring tactics into an argument you've already lost over your use of what could only loosely be called a tactic.

Any if any other infantry unit in the entire game was charged by chaos knights they would die without doing a thing, not a draw/close to draw. Then there's the fact that the entire high elf army completely negates medium cavalry, but I suppose its perfectly acceptable for an entire segments of units to be made completely useless against one army. I spose it's fine for one army to completely negate all infantry in an army aside from heavy infantry. Only heavy infantry (thinking lizards/dwarves here) are capable of holding up against swordsmasters, or cavalry, but cavalry are generally speaking double the price of swordsmasters, and no, tomb guard can more than hold their own against all other armies in certain roles.
What part of +5 Combat Resolution gives you ANY idea of what close to draw is? Medium Cavalry? Why the fuck would you take medium cavalry in the first place - or in the case of Tomb Kings, any cavalry? Chariots hit harder, Tomb Scorpions last longer, and Ushabti have Str6. Haha, come back with valid points. Swordmasters are Elite Infantry, only elite infantry are the intended targets for swordmasters. Tomb Guard, Certain Roles, exactly, you have to carve out your own niche for them. As in ARMOUR countering, not going up against a unit that mauls Infantry for breakfast. I can tell you catch on quick. And if 10 Swordmasters costs 150 Points, then what does that gets you for heavy cavalry? Oh yeah, 7+ Heavy Knights, with their 2+ Saves and Str5+, killing Swordmasters on 2's.

In your scenario of 3 swordsmasters dead and 3 brettonian knights dead, that leaves a situation of 72 points lost for the brettonians and 45 lost for the swordsmasters. As for the 'blocks of SM are stupid' line, I've seen SM used successfully in that way more than once and indeed with the HE special rules for more special units they are often quite common in larger units.
You're still thinking that Points killed is a grand reflection of a units prowess? Don't make me laugh. What about when the Goblin kills 1 Chaos Warrior, is that good? No, because that Chaos Warrior with it's high Cost, is no real different than a Dwarf warrior, but the Dwarf is cheaper. Oh, don't get me wrong, all units are effective in anyway. I mean, Hell, those 40 Tomb King Archers in a Ranked block are effective for that massive +3 SCR that they give ;) I can see what you mean.

TK archers are indeed not the answer to anything and TK are definately not a 'shooting' team. You assume that the double shots is a norm for TK, with a high liche priest against HE you will probably get 1-2 extra rounds of shooting, which means no extra archer shots and one extra shot per SSC, but in reality it usually ends up 1 extra SSC shot. I hardly consider 3 rounds of shooting (HE movement 10) with a 33% chance to hit and 50% chance to wound and then again a 33% chance to save (of 100 archers that's 33 hits, 15 wounds and 10 actual wounds in a turn and I'm yet to see 100 archers in a game...)
I didn't say that they are the answer, I said good generalship is the answer. However, Tomb Kings archers alleviate a situation quite a lot. 4 Priests, that's at least 4 a turn, which your opponent needs to counterwith spells, the average being 4 DD, with a +1. Then you have 4 other incantations on top of that - a Magic Missile, Reincarnation, Movement there's enough of it around to make the High Elves wary of just blocking the Shooting. So let's say that you don't have any spells get off. We have 50 shots, which is 16 hits, and 8 wounds, and 3 saves at mosts. Nothing major, but guess what - it's 3 Less swordmasters. Then, when those swordmasters get closer - guess what you can do - move away, shoot and magic away. Have them playing catch up. Then you've at least 3 turns until they start making life a pain for you - so that's 15 casualties. I'd take those odds. Then from the SSC, and whatnot, there's more than enough. Hell, maybe even a panic check from those Skulls of the Foe.

50 being the common number in TK shooting armies giving you 5 wounds in a turn, total of 15 before the enemy has closed with you, if you have spammed swordsmasters (a smart decision versus most armies) you will then enjoy a jolly good romping of their entire army. TK quite simple, given equal skill versus elves cannot compete, the elves can make a superior combat force, combined with massive amounts of magic denying all TK magic and in addition blasting away with their own. If we go into the periphery, we quickly see how ridiculous it is and we also begin to see that your HE die, because you suck as a player and recieve constant pwnings with them in spite of their ASF ruling. It also becomes blatantly apparent that you've never played TK before.
Never played TK, never said I have, at least for a long while. But, then again. My army is Warriors of Chaos, and by saying that I actually play High Elves, you have made assumptions, which, if we go into the periphery, means you are easily lead, confused, take things at face value, and overall, aren't that at marshalling your troops into a competitive form. Oh, and for my Warriors, I love an enemy spamming Swordmasters. I'd happily fight 40+ Swordmasters, whether as Blocks of 20, or lines of 10. Just means that they've put in 600points into something that I've put into at most 300points to counter them all with.

Against any other armies comparable unit stat wise to Swordsmasters, Ushabti will rip them apart, they cost 65 points per model, yet against virtually the entire elven army one would face are completely useless.
You really think that T4/3 Wounds will save you? Hell, I have Dragon Ogres and T4/4wounds/4+AS didn't save you. Again, don't compare stats. Just makes you look pathetic.

Like I've said before, there are two tactical aspects to warhammer combat, the charge (getting it first) and direction of attack, elves have ASF, so half of the combat tactics are gone, makes it a great beginner/kiddie army at least, finally elves are reasonably fast, so the direction aspect is somewhat minimized. GW has essentially replicated the space marines into warhammer and begun making warhammer the new brainless game to play. I should do a few videos of battle reports against HE with my army against veteran players to proove just how mindless their movement phase is, it's a simple "move maximum 10"" every turn movement phase without any thought of the consequences of being charged, long as you have enough units to cover the flanks with HE you're good to move recklessly to your hearts content.
You have no idea about how shit space marines really are, do you? And also, have a look at top ranking tournament armies. You'll see a Bretonnian, a Tomb King (150+ Archers, what's that? Tomb Kings aren't shooty?), A wood elves, a Warriors of Chaos, numerous Vampire Counts, and Daemons. Every single High Elf army at a tournament, I've destroyed. If you think High Elves require no tactics, then you aren't forcing them to make any decisions. Get over it, move on, force them to do something. Come up with new tactics, use new units, combinations you've not tried before.

For the record TK rely heavily on getting the charge, although it's magic + movement. Their charge range with magic is generally speaking 12, 15 for units like ushabti, 24 for cavalry, so they have a very large threatening radius...their weakness and low armour make this a necessity. Combine this with the premium you pay for unbreakable (who cares they die like flies) and fear (of which most armies around atm seem to be highly resilient to, cause it themselves also or are immune).
If you're still banging on about a T3, 4+ AS Heavy Cavalry, or a Light Cavalry that can't do any of the things you choose Light Cavalry for, then i've just wasted my time. Also, Weakness? You think that 150 Tomb King archers is a weakness? Low armour? Really, I thought it was Static Combat Resolution for your units, and number of shot for your ranged troops.

Anything more to say over insulting me, do it over PM. As you know (having yourself come here), that this is a child friendly site, and having people (with their hard and fast one army fits all mentality, and because it is shattered by people with logic, experience, and most of all, the ability to reason without insulting people) come over scaring people away, it's not good. It's also not especially wise to fuck off everyone who are both established (I would say respected but would be pushing my luck ;D) and liked members of the forum, such as myself, and numerous others. We're hear for a long time yet, and we hope you will be, but you won't make many friends with that attitude of yours. Maybe we got off on the wrong foot. In that, we'll agree to disagree. I'll maintain that while Tomb Kings are primarily shit army with no real identity (that's not your fault, more the lazy 6th edition design team), the ASF is not a Broken, you'll be adamant that it is.

I'm offering my hand, I suggest you take it. I apologize for my part in it, can only say you got on my tits with the constant whining.

I'm more than willing to continue a logical and reasoned discussion, but the insults and the shit you give, they have to stop. For now, and always.

Edited: Removed quoted insults - squeek



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This really is starting to degrade into a flame war, and as such a moderator really should either close it or move it to the wastes.
 
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