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What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
I respect your point, NagashKhemmler. With some MathHammering, I can see why you're upset with the ability. But the fact is, army-wide ASF is there. We can create High Elf armies that drop the ASF as much as we want but the official publication states that High Elves have it.

So, at this point we can see that it's not an issue of wishing they didn't have it. Moreover, it's an issue of how to deal with it. Do you agree? Maybe we're still missing something?
I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.
 

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What I really hate about ASF is that it will break some armies like those that are dependent on fast lightly armored cavalry or beasts, but then again if you know your going to face a High elf enemy the affect of ASF is lessened. For instance if you play Chaos warriors just don't take expendable weak tactical units like Marauders, and instead take warriors ext since most high elves units are pathetically weak in melee Versus heavy infantry.
Like my tomb king cavalry? lol 4+ save, and quite expensive :(

Edited: Don't post individual points costs - squeek
 

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You lost because of bad generalship, not because of ASF.
Against High Elves, that's always going to be the case.

Always Strikes First makes the army playable. If you look at the points per model for any given High Elf, you'll notice that they're almost invariably around or above 15 apiece, and they're T3, S3, and at best wearing heavy armor with no shield. In other words, they're very, very, very squishy. The only way that a small army that's so squishy could possibly be playable is if they get their licks in first, to offset either the return attacks making a mess of them, and help offset the fact that they're going to get outmaneuvered by more numerous armies.

Always Strikes First is really all the army has going for it, as far as special abilities go. Every army has something-- Wood Elves move and shoot without penalty, Dark Elves hate everybody, Orks have Choppas and the Waaagh!, Chaos re-rolls failed panic tests and has Eye of the Gods... I mean, in the grand scheme of things, Always Strikes First is pretty even as an army-wide ability goes.

If you can somehow take away ASF from the High Elves, you're going to roll them like a cuban cigar-- off the top of my head, there's only the ability the Herald of Nurgle can buy, but I could easily have missed something. If you also have a character that always strikes first, you'll probably get the jump on the High Elves, to boot-- it's an increasingly common magic item trait, it seems, and most characters that can take weapons like that have at least comparable initiative to the High Elves' elite troops.

The other option is to plan to be defensive against the High Elves. Rather than try to exploit the fact that they're T3 and S3, try and make your guys tough enough by buying shields and armor if they don't come with it, and try to weather the attacks from the Elves so you can return it in spades. A unit of Dwarf Warriors, for example, can be given great weapons, but they also come with hand weapons and shields. Normally, giving them great weapons is a good call, but if you consider that a Dwarf Warrior has a 3+ armor save against S3 attacks in close combat, they can weather the 15 attacks that the High Elves' spearmen are going to throw at them. The return attacks will probably kill more elves than lost dwarfs, so it comes down to static resolution. When you factor in static resolution, the Elves are in bad shape, because there just aren't that many of them.
 

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I understand how to deal with it and I guess I have to accept that armies will have to be built with this ability in mind. As a result I will have to change my army composition to be more 40k styled in warhammer fantasy, but as you said, I sadly have to accept this reality in future warhammer games and plan around it. I'll leave my sword at the door and take my bow/gun.
You did have the bright idea of charging into the Front of Swordmasters when you already charged the Flank and Rear. You obviously don't know how to deal with it.

Changing your army doesn't have much to do with it. Styling your army to counter one leaves you weak to others, and you'll get more props for a single Tournament list.

Skaven aren't a combat army any way. The only reason you field Skaven Combat troops is to shield your guns.

As Son of Horus states, Army wide ASF is what makes such a fragile army playable. Yes, High Elves are defensive. But if your opponent is constantly sitting back with a gunline, you've got the tactical advantages of placing your own charges. He should use the ASF to fall back on, rather than as the basic for his plan.

Just a heads up, Horus, there are a few things that remove ASF - such as Chakax's shield, and the Amber Pendant for Wood Elves.



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I'm painting up a high elf army as we speak. To be honest, I won't be relying on ASF with it at all! My dragon princes won't really be there for recieving a charge... they will likely lose if that happens. And my white lions will be my mage bunker. Everything else is chariots, range etc. I'm gonna be playing without any swordmasters or spearmen - the two units that make the best use of ASF. It's gonna be a good time.
 

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I'm thinking that I would have to rely on luck if a unit of 20+ swordmasters came at my ogre line. Assuming they weren't stupid and moved to within 6" of my line I would have to throw as many units into teh fight as possible and try to get them failing one of the multiple fear tests... otherwise I'm likely to lose on static and dynamic res.

A flanking hunter might be good if he gets his harpoon launcher firing on a flank (S5 bolt thrower 36" range at BS4)
Leadbelchers might do ok, 3 would average 5 kills on the SM but should take about 2 wounds off themselves doing it (and Im not that lucky with them)
A gnoblar scraplauncher would be awesome but my army isnt really large enough to have it in yet and thats relying on some serious luck to hit (even assuming my guessing of range is spot on, which it usually is).

I agree with the pointless griping of ASF taking taktics outta the game. An Ogre army shouyld depend on using MSU to outmanouver the enemy and getting multiple charges which smash through the SCR which they lack... but with HE they get to muller my ogres before they do anything: so long as you have the edge in magic (which HE really should) and get rid of my buffs wounding ogres is about as easy as it gets. At T4 and 4+ save max im a big squishy orc with relatively fewer attacks and no SCR.
 

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After all my biggest point of contention is that the ASF rule completely invalidates certain units in certain armies more than anything has before, for example with my Tomb Kings the 'heavy' cavalry is useless, for a model which will be smashed, its biggest advantage neutralised (getting the charge first).
Why would you even take TK Heavy Cavalry against High Elves? TK Heavy Cavalry aren't all that really, in almost all cases chariots are more useful as a general consensus. In this case you are actively dropping chariots that beat T3 ASF to a pulp with impact hits and taking a less appropriate choice.

It's pretty obvious that you don't like ASF, it is also true that some players will abuse the nature of ASF and not bother with tactics. BUT you need to play against them and against ASF, not just pretend it doesn't exist as you will be disappointed when you choose unsuitable units and tactics to face off against them.

Yes, ASF does invalidate certain units to a point, however so do other armywide and unit specific rules. If someone takes no mages and you have 3 DS then you wasted lots of points, at least if you take a poor unit against HE it will do something, if only allow you to use it out of character and flatten war machines or archers. If you take Lore of Fire and your opponent has all Dragon Princes your magic is redundant. If you take a flying monster against a gunline army you are likely to get cannon sniped or spend the whole time hiding behind terrain. If you have a gunline and someone takes Gorgers or Wulfric you are in trouble.

This could go on ad nauseum, but the point is lots of armies have rules and units that require you to adapt your play to. It is like a large, more complex version of rock, paper, scissors. Doesn't matter how often you try to mob SMoH it wont work. So hit them with a rock! :p
 

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Ogres have Bull Charge. Use it. Ogres have Fear. Use it. Ogres have M6. Use it.
Against a poor opponent my bull charge will be enough to kill enough of the enemy front line for the combat to go my way. But a clever opponent wont let that happen- within 6" I dont get a bull charge (my ogres havent got their momentum up enough).
Fear is relying on luck- even with 3 units charging them a LD8 unit has a 38% chance of passing its fear tests. Thats an awefully big risk to take since if the enemy passes them you just lost 3 units of ogres
M6 just gives you the charge... important vs any other army but not HE. Ogres are normally too squishy to survive being charged... ASF just plays on that weakness.
 

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You did have the bright idea of charging into the Front of Swordmasters when you already charged the Flank and Rear. You obviously don't know how to deal with it.

Changing your army doesn't have much to do with it. Styling your army to counter one leaves you weak to others, and you'll get more props for a single Tournament list.

Skaven aren't a combat army any way. The only reason you field Skaven Combat troops is to shield your guns.

As Son of Horus states, Army wide ASF is what makes such a fragile army playable. Yes, High Elves are defensive. But if your opponent is constantly sitting back with a gunline, you've got the tactical advantages of placing your own charges. He should use the ASF to fall back on, rather than as the basic for his plan.

Just a heads up, Horus, there are a few things that remove ASF - such as Chakax's shield, and the Amber Pendant for Wood Elves.
You forgot Vaz that I won all of my battles against HE, that doesn't mean ASF is any more fair/good.

I've been playing warhammer for 14 years leave your comments at the door please.

Forgive me for doing something which would have otherwise ALWAYS worked, as I said previously, there is nothing else which would survive being charged from 3 sides simultaneously and won. Aside from a ridiculously tooled up mega unit worth well in excess points wise of the swordmasters point cost.

It's a saddening trend in GW games and games online of making things massively powerful to entertain the little kiddies, at least that's the theory. It no longer suffices to have a unit with S3 T3 and a simple ability. Every single unit seems to have a need to 'pwn' everything, everything needs some ultra ability.

If people looked at the main theme of my post and answered that in preference to telling me how shit a player I am (not everyone did but there was a few ego stroakers about). It was actually anger at how ASF had broken tactical aspects of the game.

FYI, the people stating elves need ASF or they get smashed, who needs to l2p now?

M5, faster than most armies out there besides cavalry.....
Highest/Tie For Highest mainline initiative out there. You strike first almost always as it is. All ASF does is reward incompetent generalship. GOOD high elf players rarely got charged, except by cavalry, I hardly see why my cavalry should be rendered obsolete against an entire army list.

As for the impact hits of the chariots TK chariots do D3 S4 hits, they won't get you far and aren't worth their points against HE.

Let's do a little math grinding shall we? If we assume the mega 20 model unit:

2 Chariots in the flank get impact hits, for an average of 3 hits (1.5 per die) 3+ to wound, on average aproximately 2 wounds. Odds are they won't save. High elves fight back and rape the chariots. SCR or the damage they would do to my SCR unit will easily destroy the rest of the chariot unit. I had used the impact hits of the chariots before in an attempt to counter ASF, TK chariots in conjunction with a tar pit were less than adequote for this role.

Also, Chariots in any competitive TK list are a special choice, yes I do use them. Heavy cavalry are a normal troop choice, hence why I have both. The logic you are throwing at me seems like defending the ill gotten gains of the HE army book and defending GW.

Forgive the rage but I've had enough of being talked to like a complete nub by some people, in spite of probably having played warhammer a darn site lot more than they have. Like I said, as a result of this I will just be making armies based upon ranged combat because I can't be bothered with rules like this that aren't fun, so I will set out to make sure that all HE people I play against have a thoroughly un-enjoyable game as pennance for their choice ;) queen khalida and 120 bowmen here I come.

Edited: Individual points and insults are not acceptable - squeek
 

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You're welcome. You're saying you know how to play, yet you have several things you failed to consider;

a) You're saying that ASF is overpowered. Yet guess what, you still won. Overpowered then my arse.
b) You said you knew how to play and counter high elves. Congratulations, you just proved yourself wrong because you charged the swordmasters in the front, when you already had them BEAT with a charge to the rear and flank, and opened yourself up to another 9 attacks for nothing in return. I'll say it again, learn to play.

I've been playing Warhammer for 6 years. Doesn't mean that your 14 years of experience are any more valid than mine. Personally, in my opinion, they're not, as you've shown that you can't understand that charging more units into a combat that will do no benefit (other than in the High Elves Favour, bringing their banner and champion into the fray) is not a good idea. Leave Elitist 'I'm older than you so I'm better comments at the door'. They have no place here.

You're right. I forgive you for trying something that always worked in the past. What I won't apologize for is the reasoning that you give me for it though. Each army is chalk and cheese. You try the same things with most armies, and you'll lose, if it involves skill of tactics. What you need to learn is that while movement may well be the most important phase of the game, the most important aspect of the gaming hobby (besides the fun part) is that you need to adapt your tactics. If headbutting a brick wall doesn't knock it down, do you carry on headbutting it? No. You get a Sledge hammer. Learn new tactics, or get left behind.

Unfortunately, these 'Uber' abilities are part of an individualisation process that GW have come up with. While the Armies themselves as a whole may lack the background and modification that was available in 5th and 6th edition, you still have the ability to create those armies, or the armies that are competitive. It's your hobby, make a choice. They don't 'pwn' everything. Does a Spear Block beat Heavy Cavalry? Yes. Does a Heavy Cavalry unit beat Ranged Block? Yes. Does Ranged Block beat Spear Block? Yes. Rock, Paper, Scissors. Basics. Back to Basics, or Learning to Play. Each thing has a counter.

Against High Elves, it's Range, and Impact Hits (and the obvious ASF other units and characters, but they are few and far between).

ASF hasn't broken certain tactical aspects. Its opened up a new window of opportunity for both High Elf Players, and another thing to learn how to play against for their opponents.

If you want to field 300 points of a unit, just to counter the Sword Masters, look at your options. Screaming Skull Catapults. Bone Giants. Tomb Scorpions. Chariots. Archers. Light Cavalry. Lets see what counters you have available to you - For Range, you have Light Cavalry, Archers, Catapults, and to some extent, Chariots. A typical High Elf weakness, you agree? For High Toughness, you have the Giant and Scorpion. A Typical weakness of the High Elves, and they have a good few wounds to boot. Chariots. They have impact hits. Not much, mind, but they have them. Again, another High Elven Weakness.

Also, you're forgetting how to align your Chariot units. A flank charge enables 3 Chariots to get in line - as the Chariot is 50x100, you have a frontage of 100. That's 5 Swordmasters, allowing you to shuffle 3 into base contact. You caused D3 Impact its, which is on average 4.5 Hits, 3 wounds, and no saves. So that's 3 out of 2 gone before they strike. They retaliate with 4 attacks, which will be lucky to kill one. Follow up with a further flank or rear charge to cause another fear test, and a panic test, and you're balling.

Have a look at your SCR - Flank, Banner, and 3 wounds. +5. They have No Banner, No Ranks, and only outnumber for SCR. They might cause a couple of wounds, but you still win the combat, as your Charioteers/Tomb Prince are still to attack - so you're maybe looking around +3 to +7 SCR, meaning you beat them by 4, whoopdee do, Slap Bang Wallop, goodbye Swordmasters. If they pass, then there is nothing you could have done about that in the first place, and so there are no hard feelings.

Defending 'Ill Gotten' Gains? How many other armies would love to Regenerate their dead? How many others would like to Autocast their magic? Your argument is that the Magic is weak, easily dispelled? That's where the balance comes in. High Elves cost a bucket, that's the balancing side. Remember to put things in perpective before RAAAGGEEEEE and then don't insult people just because they say something your don't like to hear.

FYI, Those who say High Elves would get smashed before ASF have been playing against them for longer, griped about it, gone on with it, and still beaten them with new tactics. Take away ASF, and suddenly, you have a State Trooper in front of you costing twice as much. Fragile much?

Age, or Length of time playing warhammer means absolutely nothing on Heresy. If you have something worthwhile to add to a discussion, by all means, put it in. But if you refute facts, and insult people for telling you that you're wrong about how you went about something, that's not a part of Heresy. The fun from Warhammer comes from over coming an adversity. Admittedly, Tomb Kings are a weaker army, even among the 6th edition books, but that doesn't mean to say they're useless.



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I find ASF little more than an annoyance with most of my armies, You know when you face the Helfs that its there and can prepare in advance (Unlike a character that jumps from a unit and slaps a unit you've unwittingly sent his way)
The only army that I've seen consistently struggly against any half decent High elf general is Ogres but then with their Ws and high points and bugger all armour its always going to be a struggle. Yes they have fear but elves have high LD, Bull charge impact hits go before ASF but its really easy to negate (I think I've only managed bull charges on units already tied down by combat in the last year or so)
Every other army I've seen has ways of ignoring ASF normally with shooting or tough armour its just a case of adapting and annoying as that may seem to the more veteran players having to change things around now and again is part of the game.
 

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HE use ASF to control the movement phase the same way dwarfs control the movement phase. example:
vs HE army-oh damm it, swordmasters over there, well lets move over here... aggh dragon!
vs dwarf army-oh damm it, war machines over there, well lets move over here... aggh dwarf lord!
does that make dwarf warmachines game breaking?:so_happy:
 

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I would advise that anyone who is posting whilst in a temper refrain from doing so, I do not intend to sit by whilst insults are slung around. Also, Individual points costs of items, models and upgrades are not to be posted. Everyone has access to the rulebook and most have access to the relevant armybooks so there is no need.
 

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@ NagashKhemmler,

If you like, we can make this discussion emphasize ways of dealing with ASF (or High Elves in particular, which is my forte). After all, we all understand the pro's and con's of ASF at this point! :p

That way, we can really make this a purely constructive debate topic. Not that it isn't already but we can at least focus our efforts then, if you would prefer.
 

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Forgive the rage but I've had enough of being talked to like a complete nub by some people, in spite of probably having played warhammer a darn site lot more than they have. Like I said, as a result of this I will just be making armies based upon ranged combat because I can't be bothered with rules like this that aren't fun, so I will set out to make sure that all HE people I play against have a thoroughly un-enjoyable game as pennance for their choice ;) queen khalida and 120 bowmen here I come.
squeek can you please just lock the thread?
 

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Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
Ok I'll make sure to be polite.

Ok now firstly:
I do understand that there are many ways to counter ASF.
Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns, Plague Censor Bearers (fumes before combat), Archers, Screaming Skulls, although I wouldn't consider Chariots a counter. (FYI 4.5 hits 2.97 wounds with -1 to armour save).

Naturally certain armies couldn't care less about ASF (dwarves for example, they rarely get to charge first, have good toughness and good armour) along with any heavily armoured/elite force. This universal rule slaughters half the teams but is near worthless against certain armies who couldn't care less for various reasons, it does however make cavalry of any form quite worthless.

For me when I started playing warhammer, many many years ago what brought me to the game, was the glorious battles, the flank chargers, for me the massed melee aspect was quite thrilling and in tournaments of days well gone by, the game was highly focused on melee. I feel that ASF has forced certain armies to resort to shooty styled armies to counter the power of the ability, that troubles me, as much as some editions of wh40k which primarily focused upon melee combat troubled me. It went against the grain of what the game was.

The game of warhammer is primarily about melee combat, at least to me. I feel that in many ways ASF challenges and changes that and moves the game in a direction that I myself and others I know will be unhappy with, there are other examples that also support a potential move of warhammer towards a more heavily shooting based game and away from melee combat and indeed from the early warhammer days, magic has recieved trickling improvements to make it the highly formidable force it currently is, as opposed to previously.

I will agree that in hindsight my move of charging the swordsmen with so many units would be considered stupid, but I'll call that 'liability of age' because there hadn't before been a situation where that was a bad idea.

The fact that I am forced to play my skaven units as gun platforms annoys me, the fact I can't use my 'heavy' cavalry annoys me, but I think that any one else in that situation would find it annoying finding that their army has been placed in a cookie cutter position where its options are severely limited/curtailed.

Ultimately that's what it comes down to, there are many competitive builds for all armies, that's true, but for skaven for example, there is only one generic strategy which will counter ASF, that strategy is also highly powerful against most organisations so as the skaven player you're forced into that build, as Tomb Kings a similar situation arises so you are again forced to adjust your entire list into a new caste of tactics for the eventuality of the HE's you may fight. Yes you can easily be competitive with the others whilst doing that and with the amount of HE players in tournaments around here, it's a very worthwhile choice to do so; sadly these tactics that people are resorting to in order to beat the ASF rule are resulting in games that aren't fun for the HE or the other player and it becomes a competition of who gets to have fun, whilst the other gets annoyed.
 

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Yes, but, as I said earlier, isn't that at least in part due to the age of those books? Tomb Kings is very outdated, and Skaven, unless I'm very much mistaken, is either next or next but one on the new Army Book list. While I understand your frustration, it's unfair to base your analysis solely on Books from a previous edition against High Elves.

It'd be like saying how rubbish Dark Eldar...oh wait. :laugh: Hopefully you get the point though - it's much fairer to compare the power of ASF in the HE list vs Daemons, WoC, DE, Dwarves etc. In these cases, it's 'brokenness' is greatly reduced...it's just a matter of time, I'm afraid, IMO, you just have to suck it up until then, sorry!
 
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