[Hespithe]

If you guys are like me, you probably do your best thinking while in the shower. I imagine that I look a bit smarter in there, too. :shok:

For those of you who really haven't been plagued by the rumors and discussion of the up and coming 5th Edition, here's a little tidbit... Scoring Units, as they are now known, are gone. Instead, the new version of Scoring unit is known by another name; Troops. Yup, only Troop FOC selections will count as scoring units, leaving the other FOC selections twiddling their thumbs when objectives need to be claimed. It also means that standard Victory Point scenarios will be played quite differently. The crux is this... Troop FOC selections will be worth only 1VP when, and only when, they are completely wiped out (no under half) or are falling back at game's end. Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support FOC selections will be worth 2VPs and HQs will be worth 3VPs when the same conditions are met (totally dead or falling back at game's end).

Oddly enough, when these two new rules are combined, you'll see that Troops are necessary for 2 out of 3 standard missions (as 2 of 3 will be decided by objectives and not VPs), making a full 6 Troop FOC selections very desirable. But, these 6 FOC selections are only worth at most 6VPs to your opponent in VP scenarios. Looking at it, it would seem that having massive amounts of core Troop units is a real deal with the new rules, but often those units are not as effective, and in some cases completely ineffective, when compared to their Elite, FA, HS, and HQ comrades.

Now I'm wondering what the new best 'winning' ratio of Non-troops to Troops will be in the future edition. I imagine that with 6VPs going to Troops in many armies, the other FOC selections will be kinda sparse, especially at the 1500pt level. Is a 5:6 or 7:6 ratio feasible for most armies? Do you really want to place a single Sentinel where the enemy can snipe it in the first turn netting a quick and easy 2VPs?

It came to me that my current armies (IG, SOB, Necron at the point value most commonly played) seem to have the same Non-Troop/Troop ratio, being roughly 3.5:1. How far off of ideal do you believe this to be? Or, is it even worth worrying over?

What are your plans for 5th Edition army design with regard to this new ratio?

 

[DeusMortemEst]

WTF? Is this true? It just seems horribly retarded... Or maybe I just got it all wrong? I'm confused.

 

[Hespithe]

Ha! For games won by VPs, the VPs are assigned as follows

1 - Troops
2 - Elite, FA, HS
3 - HQ

The unit must be completely destroyed to award a victory point.

As for scoring units, well, Troops are it. It has been said that only non-vehicle and non-swarm troops count, and only basic infantry troops can be scoring units. This would mean that Blood Angels Assault Squads (Troop/Jump Infantry), Hormagaunts (Troop/Beasts), and Guardian Jetbikes (Troops/Eldar Jetbike) as well as other units would not qualify as scoring units.

Keep in mind that this is all based off of the initial leak/release of the work-in-progress 5th Edition rules set, though it must be said that 'those in the know' state that the rules as presented in this unfinished document are very (x3) accurate.

 

[Bishop120]

Well if true it would go along with the nice emphasis from the codex point of view of having lots of troops this would appear very accurate. Another one for GW on forcing us to buy lots of troops.

Its just very frustrating to me.. to see things like this.. prices go higher even though manufacturing is supposed to be cheaper and easier.. codexes and the core rules changed around so that troops (and lots of them) become the focus of the game. Its pretty blatant when you look at the codexes that thats what GW wants to force you to do. CSM for example.. 1 special weapon at 9 men or less and then your special+heavy at 10 men or more and a max of 20 marines to a troop choice. Not to mention certain other squads which used to go upto 20 are now capped at 10. Lets look at the Orks.. no real modifications to the squad rules with exception to needing a 10:1 ratio for your heavy weapons, and a loss of the Mob up rule where a falling back squad of orks could merge with another mob. These 2 rules alone are going to force people to build larger mobs to game with, which again is to try and sell the troop boxes. Think of whats been happening with regular Space Marines.. combat squads anyone?? Wonder if each combat squad will be worth 1VP to your oppenent or if it will be based around the full squad?

Im not trying to make this out to be a "oh big bad GW is trying to steal my money" because its really not. Its just frustrating to me to have GW so ok.. now your armies that you love and know and have been playing with for the last few years are illegal and we were removing all the organization from your army and we want you to play with this army/concept in mind (take as many troops as possible so you have to buy as many models as possible from us). In all honesty I think this is going to turn out to be a bad thing for GW even if it works. At best they've propped up there company for another year or two and then they are going to have to do something diffrent to get people to buy models again (warhammer 50K anyone?). Its going to be ok everyone bought another 2-4 troop boxes and then we're maxed out on models and then what??

 

[DeusMortemEst]

Ha! For games won by VPs, the VPs are assigned as follows

1 - Troops
2 - Elite, FA, HS
3 - HQ

The unit must be completely destroyed to award a victory point.

As for scoring units, well, Troops are it. It has been said that only non-vehicle and non-swarm troops count, and only basic infantry troops can be scoring units. This would mean that Blood Angels Assault Squads (Troop/Jump Infantry), Hormagaunts (Troop/Beasts), and Guardian Jetbikes (Troops/Eldar Jetbike) as well as other units would not qualify as scoring units.

Keep in mind that this is all based off of the initial leak/release of the work-in-progress 5th Edition rules set, though it must be said that 'those in the know' state that the rules as presented in this unfinished document are very (x3) accurate.

Ah, well, ok. I guess my fear was exaggerated... I guess there's still hope, then. But will it still be possible to play with only two troop choices? And if so, what are the complications? (Sorry, but I'm really slow at absorbing this knowledge...

 

[Hespithe]

With only two Troop choices, you are practically guaranteed to lose 2 of 3 standard missions, as those 2 units will have a hard time claiming d3+2 objectives. The army will still be playable, but you'd have to rely on completely destroying all opposition in order to prevent them from claiming any objectives, while keeping your 2 troop units safe.

 

[MarzM]

In some way's im quite worried about my guard. Guard at the best of time are fairly easy to kill. So shooting 5 guy's in a command squad will score my opponent 1 point, well thats a lot easier than trying to return fire and kill a space marine unit. In truth i like the idea that tanks and elite infantry can take objective but not hold them. It makes a lot of sense in that this is not their role on the battle field. Nids might be the odd one out, because their not really meant to care about the gribblies, but like everything else i'll wait to see the book!

MarzM


( I dont post pump, so it's taken a while, but only 3 post till the big 500)

 

[Janus Blackheart]

I do believe that most people under value and underplay there troop choices as they are the most point effecient units you can field. The problem is there is no diversity in the troop choices, most army's only have one or maybe two. As opposed to fantasy where you are given 4-5 core troop choices to choose from.

 

[MarzM]

well, necrons only get 1 troops choice but in many ways yes you are correct. 40k troops choices are very limited compared to your average Fantasy army.

This might be more indicative of modern armies when a company/regement etc will have a particular role to play so they have a standard template for how they should be set up!

Where as, historically (being from europe where lots of it comes from) armies would have been made up of random groups of people brought together under one banner for a common reason. It just so happened that the Italians had great Knights (partly because of Milianese plate) England had the best archers ( because of the feudel laws on archery). The Spanish had good pike etc etc etc. So the armies were more of a mish mash of things thrown together!


MarzM

2 to go!

 

[Hespithe]

MarzM, consider that your opponent must kill the entire infantry platoon to score 1 Victory Point. The point is scored for the FOC selection, not the individual unit.

This means, that for my IG army, my opponent would have to kill a full 37 models, and their Chimera, in order to score 1 Victory Point for the FOC selection. Meanwhile, I would then have 4 Troop Scoring Units to claim objectives.

Yes, IG are gonna have a rough time dealing with 'Running' combat units on terrain heavy boards, but for the Ratio, the IG have the advantage. Marine Tactical Squads utilizing the Combat Squads rule have a lesser, but similar advantage.

Janus, as for troop diversity, you have the right of it. Many armies have only 2 or three options, while others have several. Poor Necrons only have the one, lol. Army list design will become an entirely new beast for meta-game discussions.

Oh, and as for post count pumping... I've never done that either. I'm still crawling my way to 1K... Eventually I'll have something important enough to type, and get there.

 

[MarzM]

Well if that is true then that is great! I took it that it mean unit by unit! I was worried for a minute.

My Infantry squads are run around 35 to 55 guy's! If this is the case then dug in guard are going to be a nightmare to shift (which is how it should be).k:

In truth i think if the rules come out like the Pdf (that i honestly havent seen) :angel:then you will see a lot less min and a lot more max! 10 man marine units again! I feel a tear coming on! No dont look! This could get emotional!

MarzM :mrgreen:


1 to go!

 

[Metal_Ead]

I think you guys read the PDF wrong or something. Your facts about 5th Edition are wrong. The point system is just for a specific scenario. Also units with distinct elements count as seperate units for victory conditions so a platoon of guard would not have to be destroyed for one point in that scenario. Each squad would be seperate (or transports for that matter). Also beakie combat squads would count as seperate units from one another aswell. No point clarifying everything for you, find the leaked PDF and read it.

 

[Hespithe]

As I mentioned, Metal Ead, the VP listing I posted was for the standard mission that required VPs to win and not objectives. I did not state that it was standard for all games. Also, the passage in the PDF that stated VP issuance stated FOC slots, not units.

It may be that we have different versions of the trial rules, true, and what you say may be correct. But, and this is just my over sensitive feelings here, try to state your comments without derogatory or condescending remarks. Your last line would have given me pause if it was stated over a gaming table.

 

[Morgal]

Focus on guard since there what i play.

That can't be right, to be an arse i could field 1 HQ with special weapons squads, and 2 troop choices consiting of up to 5 las plas squads...giving me a total of 5 VP you could earn...i blow up 2 tanks, i win.

If i spread out my troop choice and hide one squad you get 0 VP even though you may have killed 4 squads of guard and there troop hq?...seems wrong.

Also for scoring..the troops only thing confuses me...i would hope they ment infantry only...

IE, no jump packers, no bikes, no skimmers, no tanks.

 

[Hespithe]

OK, guys.... I went looking and found another version of the 5th Edition PDF. This one actually has a few graphics instead of just the blank spaces the other PDF has.

And, it seems that in this newer edition (to me... I'm not really sure which is more current, or if either of them are any good, actually) Metal Ead is right on the issue of VPs for that third mission. The units award the points, not the FOC (if all is correct, that is). This would put IG at a severe disadvantage, as our 2 minimum compulsory troop requirements would net the opponent 6VPs all by themselves. In effect, a much smaller enemy army could be all but wiped out, but as long as one man lives, it can win in any VP match against IG by simply running more weaker units off the board. One unit of combat specialists can earn the opposition more VPs than their own army is worth. As long as a single member is alive and not fleeing at the end of the game, the opposition wins.

I'm hoping that this PDF is an earlier version.

Still, all indicators point to the informations as largely correct. Any ideas on how you plan to deal with the new nature of the 40K meta-game?

 

[Engelus]

I like where 40k is headed, Ill be glad to not encounter tons and tons of elite and heavy support. as a Black Templar marine player my basic troops are pretty expensive, and I only have one choice. i'm forced to bring 2, and that never leaves many points for anything else.

im always going up against pathetically cheap troop choices that hardly do anything, and get totally outgunned and out meleed by elites and heavy support. whereas my elites are so damn expensive that they are totally useless. terminators are a total waste of points, no matter how they are used.

 

[foulacy]

Im in two minds about what ive just read, its all confusing, just got to buckl up sit back and hope they dont f*** it all up.

As for Terminators been a complete waste of points, i couldnt disagree more.

 

[neilbatte]

from what i have read it seems that many troop choices could become obsolete and not picked as too much of a liability . guardians are to easy to kill and have such short range that they wont be worth taking similar reasoning for scouts in the marine dex or gretchin mobs further limiting peoples choices as most armies have access to only 1 or 2 troops choices

 

[martin4696]

erm

ORKS for the major win , new codex and know stupid scoring system who is going to beat them seriously ???

 

[d'hargetezan]

Well, Imperial Guard will certainly have an easy time with this, unfourtionately I don't play Guard. Curs you Casmiricus!