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Interesting. Civilians have been sitting in the capital for a while now. It's going to be interesting to see what happens now.
 

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Well, I'm torn because it was democratically elected so no matter what things should be settled that way, however what I've read is that the president was trying to gain more powers and imposing more Islamic fundamental laws on the people, so I don't know if this is good or bad.
 

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Neither do I. In some sense both his election and his overthrow are the will of the people. I don't foresee this becoming a full blown coup, but I also am not sure if elections will be held for a while.
 

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I've got a bad feeling about this......
 

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The Muslim Brotherhood is bad news. Like, globally speaking. They're actually Nazis. That's not name calling-- Hassan Al Banna, their founder, was a great admirer of Hitler's and translated Mein Kamf into Arabic, and distributed it. Their ideology, methodology, and agenda are straight out of Nazi Germany. Fun fact-- Hitler found the Muslims fascinating because of how Islam maintained a stranglehold over the population-- fascism didn't start in Italy, it started in Mecca in 679.

The Brotherhood maintains and strongly promotes a genocidal agenda against Jews, insists upon the absolute rule of Sharia (Islamic law), and is the single largest terrorist organization in the world. Included under the Muslim Brotherhood umbrella are hundreds of Islamic militant fronts, the best known of which happens to be Hamas, but the Brotherhood maintains a strong presence in Syria (as the opposition to Assad, interestingly enough, which is why the west is content to watch this one-- we're fine if they kill each other), in Lebanon (in the guise of Hezbollah, which is an Iranian group but is heavily influenced by the works of Hassan Al Banna and the nazi mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini in regard to the implementation of Sharia and the genocide of Jews), in Jordan as an opposition movement to the Hashemites, as a strong faction in Al Qaeda (Bin Laden publically had his qualms with the Brotherhood because of their willingness to interact at all with the West, but the Brotherhood provided too many jihadists for him to actually exclude them from operating a strong chunk of Al Qaeda), Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah (The Palestinian Authority), Islah in Yemen, and Habads in Kuait are all terrorist organizations funded and directly connected to the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Egyptian military was content to watch (and perhaps correctly so) for a while to see if the Brotherhood could run the country without turning into Saudi Arabia. The military was behind Mubarak, who was as secular as you can be in that part of the world. Islam is a political ideology as much as anything else, and there's a cultural understanding that Islam comes first-- the popularity of the Muslim Brotherhood came in part from complaints that Mubarak basically was playing ball completely with the West. His predecessor, Sadat, made peace with Israel and understood that for Egypt to function as a nation, he was going to have to stop being a terrorist and start acting like something approaching a rational human being. Yes, he and Mubarak both were criminals, and did horrible things to their own people, but they understood the fundamental danger of the Muslim Brotherhood and spent a huge amount of time keeping them out of power.

The Egyptian military leadership understands that because Anwar Sadat was a military leader, they are permanently tied to the secularized agenda in Egypt. There is no "getting over it" or changing course in that part of the world-- it's a byproduct of Islam. The generals' personal interests lie with whoever is willing to cooperate with the west, and they understand that Egypt has to play ball with the west to even begin to attempt to fix the economic issues that it has faced since 1917 when the country was formed as part of the remains of the Ottoman Empire. They're not stupid, and they don't want nazis, much less Islamic nazis, running the country, because they're going to be the ones on the chopping block. The reason the people hate the Egyptian military has a lot to do with Sadat and his making peace with Israel, the United States, and Europe-- the military has publically said they are committed to maintaining the peace agreements (that they only half-heartedly enforce, but that's besides the point) with Israel, among other things. They moved against Morsi the second it became evident that Morsi was going to dismantle the democratic government and cement the Muslim Brotherhood as the permanent political and social authority in the country.

I have nothing but contempt for the Egyptian people, their military, and their agenda. However, I support the Egyptian military on this one-- they understand what needs to happen, and the generals clearly understand what they need to do to make Egypt last as a country. CNN has tried to say there's a "festive" atmosphere in Cairo around Tahir Square, but if you look at the pictures, there are military personnel everywhere and there are constant fly overs-- they're doing air shows and whatnot, but if you pause and zoom in on the pictures, you can see that the fighters are all carrying missiles. The Brotherhood is whipping up riots, and the military understands that for them to truly kick the Brotherhood out of power here, they have to be prepared to hold Cairo by force. And they're being very smart about it-- presenting the image to the rest of the world that everything's great and people are celebrating-- but the reality is a bit different. Secularists and people who are Arabs but not practicing Muslims (there is no "moderate" Islam-- it's all or nothing--and these people are a minority in that part of the world) are celebrating. But the bulk of the population democratically elected the Brotherhood, and the military is right to be ready.

Democracy is not possible in the Islamic world because of Islam-- they're fundamentally incompatible and 1400 years of cultural poisoning by the "religion of peace" has made it pointless to seriously try to impose. The best we can hope for is that the military puts someone in charge as President who continues the (questionable, but western-tolerant) legacy of Sadat and Mubarak. And I hope that this doesn't devolve into a civil war, because all that results in is the militarization of the Muslim Brotherhood and increased threat to the United States, European Union, and Israel from Islamic terrorism.
 

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Excellent post Horus :so_happy:

I owe you a +1.
 

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I must say Horus your post was an excellent readn and I'll +1 on that. That being said are you Muslim yourself, as you seem to have a very good grasp on the situation at hand?

They're actually Nazis. That's not name calling-- Hassan Al Banna, their founder, was a great admirer of Hitler's and translated Mein Kamf into Arabic, and distributed it. Their ideology, methodology, and agenda are straight out of Nazi Germany. Fun fact-- Hitler found the Muslims fascinating because of how Islam maintained a stranglehold over the population-- fascism didn't start in Italy, it started in Mecca in 679.
While I agree they are Extremists and dangerous isn't it a little bit to call them Nazi's? If this were the case they would have their hands in the military and wouldn't have had Morsi removed. If anything I feel like I'm watching a rerun of post-World War I Germany. They haven't quite got to the stage where they are a legitimate concern for us or our allies.

The Brotherhood maintains and strongly promotes a genocidal agenda against Jews, insists upon the absolute rule of Sharia (Islamic law), and is the single largest terrorist organization in the world.
Well we could say that Nazi's were the same, they hated Jews. Islamic hate Jews, even certain Extreme Right Wing Christians hate Jews. That's a really generalized view and one I think is a bit far.

The Egyptian military was content to watch (and perhaps correctly so) for a while to see if the Brotherhood could run the country without turning into Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is unique though in the sense that they have modernized and moderated to a certain degree while maintaining their base Islamic roots. Also the ruling Saudi family has not been quite so horrible as Yemen or Bahrain. If anything wouldn't them turning into Saudi Arabia be a good thing?


I think the main problem is the Egyptian people want a Democracy like the United States, but doesn't know who or how to reach that end. Many of their young folks, who are now the bulk of protesters, have studied here at American Universities or have accessed democratic press through the internet. However while I supported their initial uprising I cannot help but feel they now are at odds with one another in trying to reach this end point of Democracy. 52% majority is what Morsi won, and it was legitimate. Now the other 48% have come out and ousted him because they are displeased.
Anyway that's how I see it; they just need to make up their bloody minds. I do praise the military for doing the right thing but honestly I wonder if they will not eventually seize power for themselves.
 

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I must say Horus your post was an excellent readn and I'll +1 on that. That being said are you Muslim yourself, as you seem to have a very good grasp on the situation at hand?

While I agree they are Extremists and dangerous isn't it a little bit to call them Nazi's? If this were the case they would have their hands in the military and wouldn't have had Morsi removed. If anything I feel like I'm watching a rerun of post-World War I Germany. They haven't quite got to the stage where they are a legitimate concern for us or our allies.

Well we could say that Nazi's were the same, they hated Jews. Islamic hate Jews, even certain Extreme Right Wing Christians hate Jews. That's a really generalized view and one I think is a bit far.

Saudi Arabia is unique though in the sense that they have modernized and moderated to a certain degree while maintaining their base Islamic roots. Also the ruling Saudi family has not been quite so horrible as Yemen or Bahrain. If anything wouldn't them turning into Saudi Arabia be a good thing?

I'm Jewish, and I'm an Israeli citizen. When you have a group of people actively trying to kill you, it's not a bad idea to know why they think the way they do. I also think it's very important to educate people about Islam and what it's actually about, and the threat it poses to Western civilization in this day and age of political correctness. I consider it a mitzvah (a good deed without possibility of reward) to help the public understand what they're facing on a global scale here.

Anyway, it's not "a bit far" to call the Muslim Brotherhood Nazis. It's what they are. There's that old saying... if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck? Hassan Al Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood before the rise of the Third Reich, but he restructured it to basically be a carbon copy of what Hitler was up to, just with a slightly changed (and really only slightly... replace "aryan" with "Muslim" and it's the same damned thing almost word for word) purpose statement.

Saudi Arabia is the asshole of the universe. You can say what you like about the ruling family but we don't need another place where women are not allowed to do anything without a male escort, the punishment for nicking an apple at the supermarket is a public amputation of your hand, and there are "morality police" wandering the streets with the authority to execute people for insulting Islam (which is very easy to do-- all you have to do is tell the truth about Islam and they violently riot and call you an "Islamophobe"). The only reason we put up with the Saudis is because we want their oil. To say "Would it really be so bad to have another country living under the iron-clad boot of Sharia?" is something said either out of sheer ignorance of the absolute atrocity of Sharia law, or out of a fundamental misunderstanding of the global agenda of Islam (or both.)-- Islam is a political movement as much as a religion, and it seeks total dominion. It means "submission" in Arabic. The Koran demands that the religion be spread by the sword, and it is the duty of Muslims to establish a world-spanning Caliphate.

It's a huge problem, and hiding your head in the sand about it doesn't make it go away. It's why you can't just be like "Well fuck it, it's on the far side of the world from me and doesn't really effect me" because it absolutely does. OPEC alone affects everyone, and what has gone on with the immigration problems in Europe and the Islamization of the European Union should serve as a warning. As for the UK, you guys can't afford to make the same mistake twice... it took Churchill going "Uh, guys, Hitler was dangerous" before you all woke up and did something about it. That's going to have to come from the population this time, and going "Eh it's not happening here" or whatever just lets the problem grow. And it -is- happening "here"-- "here" in the sense of everywhere. The agenda of political correctness has made Islam above insult because we are afraid of Muslim violence. And that's just going to continue to get worse until the population does something about it.


Anyway, back to Egypt. That 52% is an interesting number. The thing about multi-party systems is that a 52% election without a runoff is a landslide victory. All other parties combined amounted to 48% of the vote. And keep in mind that a lot of people didn't vote-- of those, a HUGE proportion have been found to be supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood. There are some western-educated people in Egypt, and it's an even split between the Brotherhood and the military as far as support goes. Western education does not instill Western values-- I could cite hundreds of examples of Western-educated high-profile terrorists. Morsi is one of them. Islam trumps all else for Muslims. Which reminds me, none of these people are extremists. It's dangerous that we have established calling them that in the media, because it's a fundamental misunderstanding of who these people are-- they're not extremists, they're active followers of Islam. And they're not more or less observant than any other Muslim-- you can't be like a lapsed Catholic with Islam-- you're adherent or you're not, and if you're not, you're either an apostate or part of dar al'hajj ("the house without," i.e., an infidel).
 

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I'm Jewish, and I'm an Israeli citizen. When you have a group of people actively trying to kill you, it's not a bad idea to know why they think the way they do.
I'm sorry, I had to chuckle at that haha It's completely obvious you've done mountains of research on this, which in itself is admirable. That fact that you're also able to correctly format it in a way that clearly states often over simplified views and generalized ignorance is commendable. Good on you!

To be frank, I hope peace can be found, and not for anyone's sake but their own. If that can be achieved as well as being a good (or at least not a dick-ish) neighbor then even better.
 

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I'm sorry, I had to chuckle at that haha It's completely obvious you've done mountains of research on this, which in itself is admirable. That fact that you're also able to correctly format it in a way that clearly states often over simplified views and generalized ignorance is commendable. Good on you!

To be frank, I hope peace can be found, and not for anyone's sake but their own. If that can be achieved as well as being a good (or at least not a dick-ish) neighbor then even better.
So in your opinion, because I am an Israeli citizen, I cannot be objective on the subject? I'm not writing an academic article on the subject here, so you'll excuse me for "oversimplifying" things. There's no ignorance in what I say. Hate and contempt for what it represents, sure. But not ignorance.

We can talk all day about the doctrine of Taqqiya, the publically stated agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood versus their actual agenda that is shouted in supposedly moderate Mosques, etc; and you can call it racist or islamophobic or whatever inflammatory word you care to use... but at the end of the day, it is what it is. We aren't dealing with stupid evil people-- we're talking about leadership which is educated in the finest institutions in the world who have been raised from birth to espouse the dominance of Islam. They know they can't militarily stand up to Israel, much less the United States, so they take useful idiots who want to be culturally sensitive and have been raised on the left-wing lies of multiculturalism and the evils of ethnocentricity, and play the victim instead. They have a whole industry devoted to creating sympathy in the West for phony plights, and over a matter of years, they immigrate and twist the arms of local lawmakers until there's a legal double standard for Islam in place. Case and point, look at what's going on in the Netherlands right now.

So what, you ask, does this have to do with Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood? The Muslim Brotherhood is the largest Islamic organization in the world, and it is the largest -terrorist- organization in the world. Its agenda is explicitly (and you can ask any imam, supposedly moderate or not about this) that the world at large is Dar Al Hajj (or sometimes pronounced "hajab") which literally means "the house without" and it is the duty of Muslims, as commanded by the Koran, penned by the prophet Mohammad as the final revelation of God to man, that they must unite the world, by the sword, under dar al'Islam as a world-spanning caliphate. And nobody, not even the Saudis, who have their hands in all sorts of shit these days... nobody is more active in that pursuit than the greater Muslim Brotherhood. Understanding their goals should make any reasonable person, regardless of race, creed, or social status understand that the Muslim Brotherhood belongs in political power over a major sovereign nation the way a pissed off rattlesnake belongs in a lunchbox.

The most common argument to deflect the commandments of the Koran upon Muslims is that the Old Testament is "just as violent." And apart from the indisputable fact that it isn't, nowhere in the world is the Judeo-Christian Bible used as civil law. The Koran, under Sharia, and the judgements contained within the Hadith, are the final word of law, and it is the wish of Muslims to impose Sharia upon the world. There are Sharia courts operating throughout Europe now, and some countries, out of either a misguided sense of multiculturalism or out of the very reasonable fear of Muslim violence, allow these things to operate. So we have women in the UK getting raped and then Sharia courts ruling that the rapist is now married to the victim (and this holds up in court by virtue of fear of reprisal or multicultural acceptance), we have men in the Netherlands having amputations for accusations of theft, and we have court-ordered violence against Jews in Marseilles. If you need citations of these frequent happenings, that can be arranged.

Don't be a useful idiot, and don't write off what I have to say because it comes from an Israeli citizen. You're not the one who has to deal with these people on a daily basis-- all you have is the media to tell you what to think, and it's a load of bollocks. When you live with Islam and you read and study the Koran, and you talk to honest Muslims, you'll know the difference. If this were any other subject, experience and education would be enough to consider me an expert on the subject, but because we're talking about the "religion of peace" I get called out for it instead.
 

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Well put TSoH.

OT: Never knew you were an Israeli citizen. Thought you were a Hoosier.
I'm both. Born and raised in Indiana, but that didn't stop me from getting my citizenship and signing my service papers. Home is where your heart is, after all. I do bounce between Indiana and Israel, though, as far as where I am. I try to make it there quarterly or so, but since I currently live and work in the US it's hard to be there more often than that. That being said, I'm very active in the Jewish community and when Israelis visit Indiana (which is often because of the biotech hub in Indianapolis and in Warsaw) I'm usually around since I'm fluent in Hebrew and it just makes life easier sometimes having someone who can handle things without having to translate-- most Israelis speak English but there are a lot who don't, or speak poorly enough that it's good to have someone who speaks Hebrew handy. I do it as a volunteer thing for the American Jewish Federation. Makes me feel like I'm doing something more than just sitting on my reserve papers at the moment. I actually interviewed for a specialist position with the NSA as an expert on Palestinian terrorism, but I didn't get it because I'm not fluent in Arabic and they had a candidate that was.
 

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So in your opinion, because I am an Israeli citizen, I cannot be objective on the subject? I'm not writing an academic article on the subject here, so you'll excuse me for "oversimplifying" things. There's no ignorance in what I say. Hate and contempt for what it represents, sure. But not ignorance.

We can talk all day about the doctrine of Taqqiya, the publically stated agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood versus their actual agenda that is shouted in supposedly moderate Mosques, etc; and you can call it racist or islamophobic or whatever inflammatory word you care to use... but at the end of the day, it is what it is. We aren't dealing with stupid evil people-- we're talking about leadership which is educated in the finest institutions in the world who have been raised from birth to espouse the dominance of Islam. They know they can't militarily stand up to Israel, much less the United States, so they take useful idiots who want to be culturally sensitive and have been raised on the left-wing lies of multiculturalism and the evils of ethnocentricity, and play the victim instead. They have a whole industry devoted to creating sympathy in the West for phony plights, and over a matter of years, they immigrate and twist the arms of local lawmakers until there's a legal double standard for Islam in place. Case and point, look at what's going on in the Netherlands right now.

So what, you ask, does this have to do with Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood? The Muslim Brotherhood is the largest Islamic organization in the world, and it is the largest -terrorist- organization in the world. Its agenda is explicitly (and you can ask any imam, supposedly moderate or not about this) that the world at large is Dar Al Hajj (or sometimes pronounced "hajab") which literally means "the house without" and it is the duty of Muslims, as commanded by the Koran, penned by the prophet Mohammad as the final revelation of God to man, that they must unite the world, by the sword, under dar al'Islam as a world-spanning caliphate. And nobody, not even the Saudis, who have their hands in all sorts of shit these days... nobody is more active in that pursuit than the greater Muslim Brotherhood. Understanding their goals should make any reasonable person, regardless of race, creed, or social status understand that the Muslim Brotherhood belongs in political power over a major sovereign nation the way a pissed off rattlesnake belongs in a lunchbox.

The most common argument to deflect the commandments of the Koran upon Muslims is that the Old Testament is "just as violent." And apart from the indisputable fact that it isn't, nowhere in the world is the Judeo-Christian Bible used as civil law. The Koran, under Sharia, and the judgements contained within the Hadith, are the final word of law, and it is the wish of Muslims to impose Sharia upon the world. There are Sharia courts operating throughout Europe now, and some countries, out of either a misguided sense of multiculturalism or out of the very reasonable fear of Muslim violence, allow these things to operate. So we have women in the UK getting raped and then Sharia courts ruling that the rapist is now married to the victim (and this holds up in court by virtue of fear of reprisal or multicultural acceptance), we have men in the Netherlands having amputations for accusations of theft, and we have court-ordered violence against Jews in Marseilles. If you need citations of these frequent happenings, that can be arranged.

Don't be a useful idiot, and don't write off what I have to say because it comes from an Israeli citizen. You're not the one who has to deal with these people on a daily basis-- all you have is the media to tell you what to think, and it's a load of bollocks. When you live with Islam and you read and study the Koran, and you talk to honest Muslims, you'll know the difference. If this were any other subject, experience and education would be enough to consider me an expert on the subject, but because we're talking about the "religion of peace" I get called out for it instead.
Oh my God no! I meant I had to chuckle at the phrasing you used. I'm not saying you can't be an objective viewer, I hope I didn't offend. :(
 

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A zionist jewish-american unbiased on the subject of Islam? Hmmmm, I would be very, very impressed if that were so... That being said, you have produced a well constructed case for your argument, and I would be inclined to agree with your analysis of The Muslim Brotherhood if not your views on Islam in general. The fact that the military "coup" has resulted in them handing power to the highest constitutional judge of the country at least bodes well for the political future of Egypt...
 

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Ddraig-- no worries, misunderstandings happen!

Corporal Punishment-- Yes, I am a Zionist Jewish-American. Objectivity does not equate to apathy. You can objectively study something and understand something without being subjective about it. Do I have a subjective reason to be particularly interested in the issue? Absolutely. But the only way to really do anything about the issue is to be objective about it, lay out the facts, ugly as they may be, and try to explain why these people act the way they do. I can have utter contempt and hatred of it and still approach it objectively-- it becomes subjective the second I dehumanize them, or deal in conjectures built upon personal experience. If I wanted to remove objectivity from the subject, I could talk about first-hand accounts of Hamas' crimes against humanity, tell stories of people I know who have been critically injured in the line of duty against Hamas (which, again, is a Muslim Brotherhood group) while trying to protect bystanding Palestinian children from harm, etc. But talking about personal experiences in dealing with these groups removes the undeniable credibility of objectivity. The only way to educate people on the subject is to deal explicitly in facts; we can talk about specific incidences of jihad later.


If you're interested, I would encourage everyone to read Brigitte Gabriel's books-- the first is called "Because They Hate" and is her personal story of growing up in Lebanon during the civil war and takeover by Hezbollah, and witnessing first-hand the agenda and ruthlessness of the groups influenced and funded by the Brotherhood. Her second book has the inflammatory title, "They Must Be Stopped" and is more about the things the Saudis are doing in the United States, but she talks at length about the Muslim Brotherhood as well and the numerous charges its groups have faced in the United States alone-- many, including CAIR (the Council on American Islamic Relations, which is essentially the NAACP for Muslims), were indicted as co-conspirators in the Holy Land Foundation trial which found the organization of the same name guilty of directly funding Hamas using charitable donations and government assistance-- in essence, using American tax dollars and fraud to fund jihad.
 

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I'm Jewish, and I'm an Israeli citizen. When you have a group of people actively trying to kill you, it's not a bad idea to know why they think the way they do.
Agreed

To say "Would it really be so bad to have another country living under the iron-clad boot of Sharia?" is something said either out of sheer ignorance of the absolute atrocity of Sharia law, or out of a fundamental misunderstanding of the global agenda of Islam (or both.)-
Never said that bro, wouldn't either. On a personal level I'm tired of hearing of the teachings of local MAarja's in NY and all their Anti-American bullcrap. But honestly you have lived here Horus, and you know the dangerousness of speaking honestly of the Muslim Religion. They have us so scared (or more likely those over 40 so scared TBH) of violent reprisals that we have bubbled ourselves into a corner where they can take advantage of us. I mean what if Catholics became violent......seriously! There are sad examples where the Bible does point to violence (though only one in the New Testament, most in the Old Testament and tow words of the Prophets). They would sue every Catholic and blame us as violent extremists but because the Muslim book teaches violence it's ok for them. BULLSHIT!!!

It's a huge problem, and hiding your head in the sand about it doesn't make it go away.
Please tell that to my President.

the Islamization of the European Union
Really? I'd be alittle iffy on this one Horus. True the Muslim immigration into Spain, Southern France, and many other European countries has increased dramatically lately but does that necessarily mean that Europe is becoming the next Muslim superpower.

split between the Brotherhood and the military as far as support goes.
No, not really. The military in Egypt is extremely selective in who they recruit. They try and maintain the balance of power in Egypt(or at least give the image of doing so). They would never side with the Brotherhood because the Brotherhood would probably have more than a few rounded up and executed.

you can't be like a lapsed Catholic with Islam--
In Europe, hell no! Even the kitchen Catholic are better people than the Dar al'hajj.

we have court-ordered violence against Jews in Marseilles.
Please post a link for this, I would be interested in reading up on it.

but because we're talking about the "religion of peace" I get called out for it instead.
No one's calling you out bro. If anything many people probably sympathize with you, but in the name of liberty, and free speech they don't say anything.

You can objectively study something and understand something without being subjective about it.
Amen but (cough), some people will try and lay it on you (cough). :(
 
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