[Lupercall]

Hi, just wondering what the difference between AP 1 and AP2 is? Is there a real purpose or is it just a fun fact? Since there are no Armour stronger than 2+ I find it hard to se why ex melta weapons have AP 1.

Please enlighten me 8)

 

[Firewolf]

>> Ap1 weapons always score a penetrating hit against a vehicle, even if they only glance. There are a few arguments when it comes to hitting a moving speeder, but someone else can explain, cos i had a shit day at work.

 

[Engelus]

current rules dictate that ap1 does not penetrate a speeder moving fast, which is completely dumb. I score a penetrating hit on a vehicle about once every 10 games because of this rule, its quite annoying actually. the trade off for not having a flying manuverable vehical should be a tank that is really durable, but in practice tanks (and especially dreadnoughts) are fragile whisps of tinfoil.

 

[Lord Alkmie]

current rules dictate that ap1 does not penetrate a speeder moving fast, which is completely dumb. I score a penetrating hit on a vehicle about once every 10 games because of this rule, its quite annoying actually. the trade off for not having a flying manuverable vehical should be a tank that is really durable, but in practice tanks (and especially dreadnoughts) are fragile whisps of tinfoil.

It's because you apply them in order as follows.

You hit and score a glancing result with a Ap1 weapon, it is then "upgraded" to a penetrating hit. After that if it is a skimmer moving fast its downgraded to glancing as of the moving fast rule.

Don't see this being unclear or illogical.

Skimmers have too move around constantly and can't use cover as tanks can. The problem with skimmers is that if you get immobilized it crashes.

I would say that the non skimmer vehicles is to weak, but that does not mean that skimmers are to good. And on of the problems is the AP 1 always penetrating rule and that hull-down got so much worse in 4ed compared to 3ed.

 

[Engelus]

Skimmers have too move around constantly and can't use cover as tanks can. The problem with skimmers is that if you get immobilized it crashes.

what page does it say that skimmers cannot hide behind terrain features.

where I play we have always considered them to be able to hide behind buildings or terrain features if they were above something of a higher height classification.

 

[don_mondo]

current rules dictate that ap1 does not penetrate a speeder moving fast, which is completely dumb. I score a penetrating hit on a vehicle about once every 10 games because of this rule, its quite annoying actually. the trade off for not having a flying manuverable vehical should be a tank that is really durable, but in practice tanks (and especially dreadnoughts) are fragile whisps of tinfoil.

It's because you apply them in order as follows.

You hit and score a glancing result with a Ap1 weapon, it is then "upgraded" to a penetrating hit. After that if it is a skimmer moving fast its downgraded to glancing as of the moving fast rule.

Don't see this being unclear or illogical.

Skimmers have too move around constantly and can't use cover as tanks can. The problem with skimmers is that if you get immobilized it crashes.

I would say that the non skimmer vehicles is to weak, but that does not mean that skimmers are to good. And on of the problems is the AP 1 always penetrating rule and that hull-down got so much worse in 4ed compared to 3ed.

Not quite correct. The rules as written actually say that an AP1 hit that matches the armor value of a SMF is a penetrate, the only reason that it is no longer penetrating is because of the Main Rulebook FAQ. If you were to use the rules as written, a glancing AP1 would penetrate and Skimmers Moving Fast would not negate it.
See, SMF requires a hit to beat the armour value before it kicks in. A glancing AP1 hit has not beat the armour value, it has only matched it, so the necessary prerequisite for SMF has not been met and the SMF rule is never applied. So a glancing AP1 would penetrate as the AP1 rule makes the glance a penetrate but an AP1 that beat the armour value would glance because of SMF.......... Silly, huh?
Fortunately for us all, the Main Rulebook FAQ has clarified this and all hits against SMF, regardless of source, are glancing.

 

[Engelus]

A meltagun that hits a skimmer dead on and scores a penetrating hit should cut the bloody thing in half. and send its molten edged halves to a spinning tumultuous death below.

I attacked a wave serpent with a chappy armed with a Thunderhammer 6 attacks re-roll hits, 9 strength. why did it take two turns to actually damage this thing. if it was a tank, it would have been exploded into tiny bits with the lightest tap from the thunderhammer. the combination of only ever hitting on sixes then only being able to glance makes killing a skimmer in melee nearly impossible, then toss on things like holofields (roll 2 take lowest) and vectored engines (Immobolised doesn't kill it) and you've got a vehicle that is super durable.

yeah, theoretically a skimmer should be hard to kill in melee cause its up in the air and darting about. But a Fervent, Zealous Chaplain (or any other similar model) with a jump pack should be able to take one out with a thunderhammer no problem.

 

[The Son of Horus]

Whether it's correct or not, we remedy this situation around here by not allowing skimmers to claim cover from within terrain or behind terrain, as they're able to be "above" it. Naturally, they're able to see over terrain as well to return fire, but the larger volume of units with line of sight that way more than makes up for it. Obviously, that's a house rule, so you can't really use that in tournaments, but it does make sense for friendly games.

As for the rules as written... Lord Alkmie's explanation is more or less correct. The rules say that an AP1 weapon always scores a penetrating hit when it damages a vehicle, which is to say that a roll which matches the target's armour would still be a penetrating hit rather than a glancing hit. However, some things supercede that, such as smoke launchers (which downgrade all penetrating hits against the vehicle to glances) and the skimmers moving fast rule (which again, downgrades hits on the skimmer to glances if they've moved more than 6'' in the previous turn.)

 

[Lord Alkmie]

Yup, clear as a normal day in Los Angeles.
Me and my buddies play skimmers like Son of Horus, that is that they can never claim cover and can always se over cover.

But some times we make exceptions when there are things that are impassible for beeing to high like a high defensive wall or a tower. Then it is'nt that impossible to get a shoot in.

 

[The Wraithlord]

the combination of only ever hitting on sixes then only being able to glance makes killing a skimmer in melee nearly impossible

If you are able to hit a skimmer in cc, you can penetrate it. SMF only applies to shooting attacks.

 

[Engelus]

the combination of only ever hitting on sixes then only being able to glance makes killing a skimmer in melee nearly impossible

If you are able to hit a skimmer in cc, you can penetrate it. SMF only applies to shooting attacks.

thanks for that. you have saved my sanity.

 

[Engelus]

actually, this is from teh main rulebook faq.

makes me sad

"Q. If a weapon with AP1 scores a glancing hit against a
skimmer that moved more than 6” in its previous turn,
does the hit count as glancing or penetrating?

A. Glancing. Basically, if a skimmer that has moved
more than 6” in its previous turn suffers a glancing or
penetrating hit, from any kind of weapon, both in close
combat and from ranged attacks, the hit always counts
as a glancing hit."

 

[Ordo Xeno Commander]

yea as i thought. that particuler rule, plus the one offered by smoke launchers over rules the AP1 rule. im not sure what other rules like that there are but all rules such as the skimmer rule and smoke launchers rule overrules the AP1 value.

 

[Engelus]

simply from a mechanical standpoint, smoke launchers are proactive, and you have to give something up for it. in most cases SMF you dont have to give anything up for, you just move your 12 inches and shoot. smoke launchers require you to not shoot.

 

[The Wraithlord]

actually, this is from teh main rulebook faq.

makes me sad

"Q. If a weapon with AP1 scores a glancing hit against a
skimmer that moved more than 6” in its previous turn,
does the hit count as glancing or penetrating?

A. Glancing. Basically, if a skimmer that has moved
more than 6” in its previous turn suffers a glancing or
penetrating hit, from any kind of weapon, both in close
combat and from ranged attacks, the hit always counts
as a glancing hit."

Holy shit, I never saw that!!! Wow, that changes things for my Tau :twisted:

 

[don_mondo]

Holy shit, I never saw that!!! Wow, that changes things for my Tau :twisted:

Must have missed my earlier post..................

"Fortunately for us all, the Main Rulebook FAQ has clarified this and all hits against SMF, regardless of source, are glancing."

 

[Engelus]

oh man, this rule (SMF) isnt nullified during "Death Or Glory"

It would be an automatic hit, but still only glancing.

 

[don_mondo]

oh man, this rule (SMF) isnt nullified during "Death Or Glory"

It would be an automatic hit, but still only glancing.

Well, now, that's a whole 'nother debate..............