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Discussion Starter #1
Certain disadvantages chosen to balance traits seem to go out of the window in Apocalypse. I was thinking about this in relation to Initiate's post here, and his choice of 'We stand alone'.

"That's gonna hurt you in Apocalypse games" I thought. I assume that 'cannot take allies' MUST apply to Apocalypse games, or how is it a disadvantage at all?

Likewise, there's a problem with 'Have faith in suspicion' - cannot take Librarians is fine, but cannot ally with psykers? Rubbish. In Apocalypse, you can have SMs allied to Nids, Orks or Necrons, but not the Inquisition? Preposterous.

Crimson Fists have a disadvatage that gives the one less Heavy, Fast and Elite choice on the FOC chart. Apocalypse has no FOC chart. Ergo, Crimson Fists have no disadvantage.

I'm assuming that the other restrictions - 0-1 on Vet squads etc in Aspire to Glory, etc, would still stand... but there's no real logical reason why they should.

Thoughts?

'officer, I turned round for a moment, and someone stole my cyclops'
 

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The thing is.. apocalypse isnt about a company or two, its about the whole damn chapter meaning what could be lacking in some companies could be filled in by others, apocalypse is about throwing all your models, everything you got to the table and see'ing what they can do
 

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I think you should be able to use almost anything, but I'm sure there will be some circumstances where there will be a conflict between traits and doctrines and the like...and while you could field them all, you probably shouldn't unless you can concoct a really good reason for them to be using things they shouldn't.

Of course, there's always ways around that.

In the case of Space Marines and Traits, say there are Black Templars in one of your forces, and Blood Ravens in the other...but on the same side. This could work. The Black Templars won't have anything to do with Psykers in their own ranks, but another Chapter as an ally for a battle...that's doable.

Or a Chapter that only allows a certain number of vehicles...why do the vehicles have to be from the same chapter (well...unless they are all painted up as that chapter... in which case another reason may need to be cooked up.)

Where I usually run in to snags is with Tyrannids and Necrons.

I have a hard time believing Tyrannids especially would be allied with anyone. Maybe at most some Genestealer cult and some hybrids (which would have to be modeled as IG...because as soon as they looked like Genestealers there would be a revolt and the IG would fight them.) I dunno. The bugs are the enemy of all organic life.

Necrons...maybe if there were pariahs and an infiltrator and maybe an Adeptus Mechanicus force...otherwise, Necrons are the enemies of all living beings.

I'm starting to ramble.

I can just see instances where you shouldn't simply "bring all your figs".
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The thing is.. apocalypse isnt about a company or two, its about the whole damn chapter meaning what could be lacking in some companies could be filled in by others, apocalypse is about throwing all your models, everything you got to the table and see'ing what they can do
... except in the case of the Crimson Fists, the restrictions are there precisely because the Chapter has been completely battered. In the old days IIRC it that only one company had survived. In practice, that would mean you could reasonably field a battle company, maybe a small vet contingent, couple of tanks... and that would be it, the entire Chapter as in now exists (which would never happen of course). In the Apocalypse game in the last WD, there were more Ultramarines on the table than in the whole Crimson Fists Chapter (unless GW have reduced the scale of the Rynn's World disaster).

Furthermore, their advantage (Ork-hunters) is directly related to their disadvantage (Massacred by Orks). If there's no disadvantage, well, the Disaster on Rynn's World never happened. If it never happened, the Crimson Fists never learned to hate (or fight) Orks so ferociously, so can't have 'preffered enemy: Orks' as their advantage. It doesn't add up.

This can be duplicated/mirrored for a number of other traits. While I think Elc is right that you can play to fluff with the Apocalypse rules - some FOC restrictions are arbitrary anyway - I think traits need to be held on to. If necessary, house rules may be needed; I'm gonna suggest one and see if any Crimson Fists players bite.

Suggested Apocalypse House Rule for Traits (Crimson Fists)

If Crimson Fists players insist on 'Prefered Enemy: Orks' as an advantage, the opposing player may insist the Crimson Fist player only fields 85% of the total points s/he is allowed (whatever that means in an Apocalypse game) to represent the effects of the Rynn's World Disaster.

Any CF players out there fancy the challenge?

Any other rules to patch the traits/FOC problems Apocalypse will create?

@Elc, don't go there with "Nids can ally with..." it's just wrong. Like allying with gravity or cancer. I go on a big rant here about it and there are others...

'what's that coming over the hill, is it a cyclops?'
 

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Black Templars don't get Whirlwinds or Devastator squads, but I'll be painting up a few for Apocalypse games, and simply use the rules for DA whirlwinds, and Ultramarine Devastator squads.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well yeah, that's partly the point - don't know the date of the Rynn's World Disaster off hand, but without it happening (ie it's 'still in the future') the Crimson Fists should have neither their disadvantage nor their trait; the two are linked, because it was the Disaster that 1 - caused the Chapter to be under-strength, and 2 - led them adopt fighting styles specifically targeted at the Orks who'd invaded Rynn's World. So with the one (preferred enemy: Orks) comes the other (can't remember the name, but it means they're under strength). To put it the other way round, without the disadvantage, there logically can't be an advantage either.

'...like a cyclops, on a wire...'
 

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You can play any army as standard codex armies and i quote

"If you wish to play an army of one of these chapters using the chapter traits rules then these are the traits you must use however using the normal space marine army list without chapter traits is always a valid option and is perfectly represenative of these chapters."

Thats paragraph with the chapters of legend in the space marine codex, i doubt it applies to the more specified chapters like black templars etc.
 

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When was the Rynn's World Disaster?

Reason I ask is because the game of 40k can be played pretty much during any era. Who's to say the game doesn't take place in M38, or M39.
Ork Warlord Snagrot, the archarsonist of Charadon (checked wiki for time periode, had no idea myself) in 41.989 launched a Waaaghh! from the Loki system bent upon conquering Rynn's World.

The Fist's 4th company was sent to intercept, but was heavily outnumbered due to bad intel. Subsequently chapter master Kantor recalled the entire region to return home to Rynn's world to stop the Orks onslaught.

Upon arriving at Rynn's world they Fists were immediately in the thick of it, the planet below being torn apart by massive amounts of Ork forces.

A freak accident would mark this battle in the history of the chapter ever since. A stray launched for a planetary defence station accidently hit the Fists' monastery fortress on the planet's surface, somehow hitting a previosly unknown weakpoint in the fortress' defenses. The missile not only penetrated the defenses it hit the massive ammunition supply within, causing a massive explosion levelling most of the monastery and everything around it. Of the forces in and near the fortress only about a dozen survivors, among them chapter master Kantor.

After the survivors regrouped they managed to make their stand in New Rynn city, holding out and eventually driving of the Orks after eightteen months of fighting. At the end of the war the chapter had been almost completely wiped out, 128 marines was al there was left. It took several centuries to rebuild the legions numbers, during which time they mostly operated with small infiltrating squads. Ever since the Rynn's World incident the Fists' first chapter has numbered 128.
 

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i reckon youre overthinking apocalypse, and trying to fit it into a mould it isnt a part of. its just a laugh, pure as. if you've noticed, the rules section is very, very scant, in a very very big book. just take things in the spirit of the game, not the fluff.

if youre set on recreating the fluff atmosphere, and have a group of guys that are cool or enthused about that, then house rules are perfect.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
i reckon youre overthinking apocalypse, and trying to fit it into a mould it isnt a part of. its just a laugh, pure as.
You may be right Tor; but the intention wasn't necessarily to go 'erk Apocalypse is broken because of the Crimson Fists'. More that Apocalypse has implications for game logic, the Crimson Fists being an example.

... just take things in the spirit of the game, not the fluff.
TCHAA! As if the fluff isn't exactly what makes 'the spirit of the game'... Shame on you! (No, not really, I have daleks and 2000AD characters in my games sometimes. But if I'm having a 'serious' game rather than a 'goofy' game, I think it should logically work with the 'known' stuff about the 40k universe, or at least, not blatantly contradict it.)

if youre set on recreating the fluff atmosphere, and have a group of guys that are cool or enthused about that, then house rules are perfect.
Forget the house rules, they're not important. It was more the contradiction that Apocalypse raises, betweem fluff and rules, when rules are based on fluff, but then rules get changed but other rules don't. I presume Crimson Fist players will still want 'Preferred Enemy: Orks', but it's a nonsense without the corresponding disadvantage. In effect, it's 'free' skills for marine players.

As I say though, this is only an example. You have to chuck out all the penalties on FOC chart if you chuck out the FOC chart, and none of the traits with FOC bonuses make sense either. So what if your chapter can field 3 Elite and 3 HS dreads but can't have Librarians? Mine can field 56 dreads and all the Librarians I want... it makes a nonsesnse of a good half of the traits, as well as the concept of balancing advantage and disadvantage.

And that really is the point, I think (it's a bit difficult to remember tho').

@ Heph; thanks for that (good old wikipoedia!) - the fluff I have (from RT days) is similar but not identical. 41.986 the Dark Angels take part in the relief of Rynn's World - so the invasion must be 985 or 6; a bullseye on the Crimson Fist arsenal by a system defence missile causes the 'ensuing holocaust' that 'almost obliterated' the Chapter; two groups survive - one under Commander Pedro Cantor, and another seconded to garrison duty in New Rynn City under Huron Grimm.

I think I got the 'one company' from misremebering that the DA only manged to insert the Ravenswing onto the planet (back when they had jetbikes) before being forced to retreat. The implication of my fluff is that there are only about 40 Crimson Fist survivors...

@ Words of Truth, absolutely; only it seems likely that players will claim trait advantages (where these aren't just 'take loads of bike squads' or whatever... White Scars army? Pah. I have 150 Iron Hands bikers!) but not the disadvantages. As advantages cost both points and disadvantages (ie the expenditure/imposition of both of them balances the advantages) then only having the advantage is 'just not right'.

Anyway, enough of my foaming at the mouth...

'I have to see a man about a cyclops...'
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Gentlemen, I crave your indulgence again...

Words of Truth; I'm sorry if what I said gave you the impression I had ignored your post. 'Absolutely' was intended to signify 'I agree with what you have said', both in terms of fact (ie quoting p45, par2 of "Chapters of Legend") and in terms of how I took your intention, which was I believe to point out that, for example, it would be reasonable to field a 'vanilla' list as the Crimson Fists - say, for example, before the Rynn's World Disaster. My intention was then to flag up what I consider to be the problem which would be encountered if players didn't do this.

Son of Horus; the 'cost' of traits is paid in both points and disadvantages. Remove the disadvantage and the skills become, if not free, then very cheap. The points cost assumes that a disadvantage exists. Otherwise why are disadvantages necessary at all? RT managed perfectly well with the concept of buying troop upgrades with points alone.

Anyroad up, I've ranted on this long enough on this topic. I think the main arguments are fairly clear - if you're just having a massive battle with everything you've got, it really doesn't matter if you field 300 terminators from the same chapter or whatever. But then again that doesn't just apply to Apocalypse. You don't have to play to the fluff any time you don't want to.

If on the other hand you do play to the fluff (and yes, I do draw a distinction in my head between "games of 40k" and "games of bring-and-battle with daleks and dwarves and dinosaurs using the 40k rules") then it looks to me like Apocalypse will cause some problems. Enough to make it unworkable? No, of course not. Enough to stop me playing? Absolutely not. Enough to make me think 'hang on, they've not really thought this through'? Definately.

Someone else's turn (though I really wouldn't be surprised if everyone is sick of this by now).

'Waiter! There's a fly in my cyclops!'
 

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Sorry Red Orc i must of overlooked your post by mistake when i saw Son of Horus post :)

On the subject though i doubt the larger scale games will ever be competitive, so i would probably figure something out with who you play with you try get a definate answer from staff at GW.
 

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I figure you could run the Crimson Fists pre-disaster. I imagine they could be sans-traits at the at point: no limitations or preferred enemy either.

I do think that if you have a trait that comes with a disadvantage, you should try and play the advantage AND disadvantage in-game.

For example, if you want to have the Favored Enemy Orcs...then you should have the disadvantages that go with it.

For example in my own DiY Chaos Space Marines...The Sons of Magnus...they particularly hate Ahriman and don't take any cult units: Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines.

When I play, regular 40k or Apocalypse...I don't take cult units, and even the Ahriman fig is one of my all-time faves...I won't use the Character in my forces, I stick to their fluff.
Even if I have a bunch of Khorne Berserkers...I won't use them, even in Apocalypse because my fluff dictates they wouldn't use them. Maybe if another player brought another Legion of CSM Force THEY could use them, but I wouldn't.

That's my own choice and it's how I play.

It it better or worse?
Neither...just a choice or preference.

Do I wish everyone played the same way?
I'd be lying if I denied that. Of course I wish everyone played according to the fluff.
Not very realistic, everyone has different preferences.
 
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