[loki619]

ok so i just got the apoc book off a friend as i wanna plan a game its been suggested we do the good old imperial vs traitors so atm it looks like

blood angels , dark angels , space wolves
vs
Khorne daemonkin , (traitor)guard and they want 1 guy running chaos


now i think chaos are soo far behind now having no formations to speak of unless u wanna buy the black legion / crim slaughter books which this person does not have. so i saw this when looking in the book

forcing a narrative
(thanks to the freedom of apocalypes chaos players should feel free to use traitor versions of pretty much any
imperial formation, for example its perfectly reason able to see chaos pred assasin squads or renagade baneblades
with traitor guard , just add the appropriate blasphemous signs and the skys the limit.
a renagade chapter could even use a space marine company data sheet - simplt exchange the captain, chaplin and command
squad for a lord , dark apostle and chosen respectively. )


Now from this would it be fair to say that this person could run chaos versions of current marine formations for eg a sky hammer using raptors and havocs , or a libby conclave with sorcs ( i know there is 1 in the crim book but its really crappy ) and run a a traitor legion with chapter tacs on stuff that is unmarked making it a chaptor on the turn is does this seem unfair/broken


thx for reading and any comments welcome

 

[Iraqiel]

At the end of the day, so long as you three clearly communicate and maturely discuss what's being used, do what you want.

If your group collectively feels chaos deserve a little kick into gear and agree that traitor guard are essentially guard, and chaos space marines have tactics based on the codex astartes marines tactics, then by all means mix it up.

 

[darkreever]

ok so i just got the apoc book off a friend as i wanna plan a game its been suggested we do the good old imperial vs traitors so atm it looks like

blood angels , dark angels , space wolves
vs
Khorne daemonkin , (traitor)guard and they want 1 guy running chaos

Not a terrible setup, though given what can be used in apocalypse the chaos side might be at a slight disadvantage since they will have considerably less power armoured bodies.

now i think chaos are soo far behind now having no formations to speak of unless u wanna buy the black legion / crim slaughter books which this person does not have. so i saw this when looking in the book

Well there is an update(?) coming out for chaos that includes a number of formations (under the black legion faction I believe, theres a thread about it you should look into for more info) so that might help.

forcing a narrative

Forging a narrative, not forcing

(thanks to the freedom of apocalypes chaos players should feel free to use traitor versions of pretty much any imperial formation, for example its perfectly reason able to see chaos pred assasin squads or renagade baneblades with traitor guard , just add the appropriate blasphemous signs and the skys the limit.

This makes sense, the predator assassin squadron datasheet came out before the implementation of factions, so theres nothing limiting it to loyalist marine armies. And there are a number of army lists out there for renegade guard, plus taking the current codex and using it as a renegade army.

Nothing wrong here.

a renagade chapter could even use a space marine company data sheet - simplt exchange the captain, chaplin and command squad for a lord , dark apostle and chosen respectively. )

Keep in mind this says datasheet, not formation or detachment. Thats because most/many datasheets were produced before factions (which formations and detachments use to limit who has access to what.)

Here is a list of containing chaos datasheets you could look into. They used to link to the respective sheets on the GW site, but have been taken down now, so you'll have to do the searching on your own.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93560
Now from this would it be fair to say that this person could run chaos versions of current marine formations for eg a sky hammer using raptors and havocs , or a libby conclave with sorcs ( i know there is 1 in the crim book but its really crappy ) and run a a traitor legion with chapter tacs on stuff that is unmarked making it a chaptor on the turn is does this seem unfair/broken[/quote]
The formations, as long as you and your opponents agreed, I could see and doubt there would be much of a problem. But using a combination of chaos stuff and chapter tactics? That I'm less sure about.

If your going to use marine formations I would try to stick with ones that can make reasonable chaos swaps (like the librarius conclave or the demi company or the armoured task force, replacing the thunderfire cannon either with a second warpsmith or rapier battery.)

 

[MidnightSun]

It's Apocalypse; spend a shitload of time talking to each other beforehand to determine what's okay to use. If you want to use some totally made up rules, you go ahead if everyone agrees. Apocalypse can be great fun, but it can also be a really tiring, horrible experience if you turn up with Aetaeo'rau'keres without telling anyone.

 

[loki619]

i know i trying to include everyone in a themed game but the marine players as like we want full as wriitten rules with no changes and you guys to play chaos which in my eye is they wana play a complete 1 sided game coz 1 on the marine players has 5 knights and no1 on the other has any superheavys

 

[darkreever]

Marine player with five knights..

Does he actually mean knight player with some marine allies?

 

[Iraqiel]

i know i trying to include everyone in a themed game but the marine players as like we want full as wriitten rules with no changes and you guys to play chaos which in my eye is they wana play a complete 1 sided game coz 1 on the marine players has 5 knights and no1 on the other has any superheavys

In this case I would either a. ask the chaos guys if they will fall on their sword and play a game that they are pretty sure that they will lose, in a glorious or potentially enraging last stand... b. Write the scenario and scoring rules yourself so that the Chaos objectives align more closely with what you have and can do, such as 'Sacrifice 88 models in close combat, winning the favour of Khorne'; 'manifest 9 psykic powers successfully, winning the favour of Tzeench'; 'Hold or contest objective X (shrine to nurgle?) for 7 turns or until the end of the game, winning the favour of nurgle', rather than the usual 'kill everything or seize normal objectives; the imperium's should be more difficult to balance the game; or
c. Tell them to fuck off and play apoc amongst the three chaos guys, they sound cooler.

 

[ntaw]

I'll take c :laugh:

 

[GrimzagGorwazza]

i know i trying to include everyone in a themed game but the marine players as like we want full as wriitten rules with no changes and you guys to play chaos which in my eye is they wana play a complete 1 sided game coz 1 on the marine players has 5 knights and no1 on the other has any superheavys

Yeah this'd be a very quick way of suddenly finding yourself uninvited from my apocalypse games. Apocalypse is about the spectacle, not rules lawyering. If the person/people on the forces of order side are already being this difficult about army selection and trying to impose their will on what their opponent can/can't play with then they'll probably be an absolute nightmare once the game starts. Expect hours of nitpicking arguing how the apocalypse rules interact with 7th.

Actually unless i'm missing something and they've changed the rules (I play 6th ed apocalypse) page 18 of the apocalypse rulebook pretty much blows their argument out of the water.

RAW
pg 18 Apocalypse rulebook "Armies may include any number of units from any codex, plus any number of fortifications and apocalypse formations. No force org restrictions apply to the army. In addition ignore unit restrictions that are normally limited 0-1 or that say you must field one of x to take one of y.."

pg 19 Apocalypse rulebook "Remember you can bring along units from more than one codex."

Heck there's nothing to stop your CSM player from fielding say a helldrake and then running the marines using loyalist rules.

 

[loki619]

well i was leaning more to c as i am the chaos person but i am thinking i might just drop on them with my corsairs insted and just stay away from the other traitors (just deep strike my whole army)

 

[MidnightSun]

coz 1 on the marine players has 5 knights and no1 on the other has any superheavys

Oh, man, that sure does sound like it'll make for a totally one-sided game, how overpowered...

If they want to play it straight RAW, or as close as possible; not an uncommon attitude among gamers, even in Apocalypse; then that's fine. Run your CSM using Space Marine rules if you really want to have Drop Pods and stuffs. You won't be able to use Raptors instead of Assault Marines, or Havocs instead of Devastators, but something tells me one wouldn't shed too many tears over that (oh, no, I have to give up my Autocannons so I can have ATSKNF and Grav Cannons! Woe!). If the most terrifying thing they have is a Baronial Court... that's well underneath the potential power levels of Apocalypse. I doubt they're playing because they want you to have a terrible time and just faceroll you.