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In order to continue this discussion without the continued derailment of another persons thread (for which I appologize sincerely) I started this new thread.

My basic tactic against all Tau lists is to kite them at extreem range, ie. outside of the maximum range of their massed firepower, 30 inches. While the Tau do have guns that can lay down plenty of fire at longer ranges, they cannot create the sort of casualties they need to at ranges longer than 30 inches, with the exception of the Hammerhead submunition round.

Many Tau players attempt a Mechanized list that counters this disatvantage but also leaves them vulnerable to assaults if the defender can cover his firebase with fast moving assault troops. In the previous thread, I was informed that Fish of Fury will never fail if performed correctly, I must humbly disagree with this statement until it is explained to me exactly how a "properly supported" fish of fury tactic is performed. I have seen the tactic used before myself on many occasions and have never had a problem countering it with either Space Marines or Orks. This either means that it has never been performed properly by any Tau player I have ever faced, or it can indeed be countered.
 

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In order to know how to counter Tau, you must know Tau. So, I will play the role of Tau-supporter so that we can come up with better ways to defeat the blue-skins.

So, to pull off this "perfect" FoF, the tau player must understand that there is something that can counter-attack him. Now, it could be possible to have enough fast counter-assault units to keep any smart Tau player from even attempting such a tactic. However, that could just be an excuse for them to hide and only use their long-range firepower. You don't have to kill the entire enemy force to win, you just have to kill more.

Now, for the example of using a trukk of boyz as a counter attack, this would be easily counted, because a trukk is AV10 and open-topped, correct? With basic weapons of S5, they could easily destroy this threat. The FWs could jump up, shoot some orks, while a stealth squad/crisis squad could fire at the trukk. And there is no reason why the FWs should be alone. Only an idiot would try to send in FWs without some support tailing them.

For Jump infantry (like assault squads and whatever the ork ones are called) you just have to avoid them, or FoF them. It is entirely possible to hit them, unless they are hanging out in the middle of the enemy force. Then you can easily avoid them (easily for an expierenced player).



The best counter to FoF has nothing to do with hitting the squad. It has everything to do with hitting the transport. While tough vehicles (good armor, skimmers, no death on immobilized), under enough pressure they will fall. But no expierenced Tau player will leave it in the open for long.

Kiting is possible, but you can only fall back so far. My concer would be that despite not have many 31"+ weapons, their's are alot better. And they can move into the 30", hanging out in cover. In a pure shootout, Tau have an upperhand.
 

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This is where things tend to get sticky in tactical discussions, the "What if" factor. Orks are notorious for lacking reliable tank hunting squads and so destroying the transports become quite difficult. You cannot kite the whole game, but even a few rounds of massed Bigshoota fire that gets very little response from the Tau can tip the game balance. Of course Mission plays a huge part in how and what can be done tactically as well.

As an Ork player, I would never let a crisis team or stealth suits get close enough to blow the Trukk apart. It becomes a whole cat and mouse manuvering game that has to be played out by individual players and will only be decided on the table top. There is no tactic that will win in every situation, but generally speaking I have found kiting the Tau to be extremly efffective, even if they are Mechanized and attempt to use FoF.

If the Tau player tries to simply hide and use his longest range fire power, such as his hammer head to eek out a win at extrem long range, it will open up the table for the Ork player to move almost at will. It is always tactically advantageous to force your opponent to act in a predictable fashion. Tau players, and players in general expect the typical Ork army to run screaming in a giant horde across the tabletop. Few Tau players have even an inkling of what to do when this does not happen. All of their carefully planned Kroot counter assaults are suddenly caught out of position. Most of their firepower is still out of range on turn three, which is a case most Tau do not face. Suddenly their static elements end up playing no or little part in the battle, while their mobile elements find themselves out numbered or hiding. Each of these things are tactically advantageous for the Ork player.

I will say that the way I play my orks can be countered by any army played by any good general who is prepared for it and I will never claim that any tactic is undefeatable. What I can claim is that this tactic has worked well for me in every battle I have ever had against the Tau. I can't know that my tactic is only successful against the tactically stunted until a Tau player successfully counters it. Since so far, none have, I am left thinking the tactic is indeed effective. I am not trying to sound superior, I am simply trying to explain my experiences as frankly as I can.

My tactics rely on the contents of my army list as well, which does not contain hordes of boyz but rather highly specialized squads that do specific things. I can hang in a shootout with almost any army due to fielding 22 bigshootas, 5 of which are twin linked. That adds up to 66 str 5 shots 15 of which can be rerolled. In addition, I field 11 shootas that are designed to be the equivilent of str 5 storm bolters that are ap 3 within 12 inches. All of these guns are assault weapons to boot, allowing me to lay down this volley of firepower without the loss of any mobility.

I greatly appreciate your responses and hope I have explained myself to your satisfaction.
 

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The problem with this is that you rely on knowing your opponent before hand, thus you need to prepare a list sutible to this tactic, which would not work with a generic ork list, which lacks the shooting power of yours. Futher more, normal Tau players would not find it hard, esspecily using fish, to close the gap if they take the inititive.

Once in range they will proceed to maul you. Even weakened their FW are more than a match for shootas. Any CC units you send in will more than likely be taken down by FW etc. as they close in.
 

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The thing tau suffer too the most IMO is fast assault elements that they struggle to get to grips with. This also includes infiltrating assault units. One infiltrating Chaos lieutenant can spoil the day for a Tau army, let alone and army that contains many such units. Hormaguants that can emege from cover and charge in the same turn, units that charge out of transports. etc...
 

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I agree with Jig.

I have recently played against Tau with a Wych army and just went in with a full speed ahead, run in the raiders and charge approach. There wasn't a lot the Tau player could do as Wyches swarmed his units and cut them down in HtH.
The only thing his Hammerheads and snipers really had to shoot at were raiders that had already dumped their squads into the midst of his army.
The thing that really killed him was the fact that the Wych weapons cut his ws in half, and when you're starting with a ws of 2, that ain't good.
Add the fact that half the Wych squads had their ws increased to 5 because of drugs and things get really nasty.
 

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But that is their army list. A normal list should take enough AT power to deal with that. How much did he have?
 

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You don't need anti-tank weapons to fight Dark Eldar for the most part. Maybe a lascannon somewhere to hurt a Talos that's wandering around, but the Raiders can go down to bolter fire. I'm sure there was enough anti-armor in the army for any other opponent, though. The Tau certainly aren't lacking in that department.
 

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Every weapon he had in the army, grunt weapons included was able to kill my raiders. I just used terrain and initial close combats to mask my second wave approach. The first wave just gunned in and went on a butt kicking spree.
I lost a couple raiders to smart missles before they got close enough to drop troops off, but the survivors of those vehicles were in the fight two rounds later, after they disentangled from the wrecks.
The wych army's main strong points against Tau are webways, speed and the fact they can attack out of raiders. In a cityfight game, they are one of the nastiest armies to go against.
 

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The concept of trying to outrange Tau is frankly absurd.

Stay out of range of their mighty 30" Pulse Rifles? Wow, you've neutralised the 6 Fire Warriors you'll see.

Mech Tau (is there any other kind?) is a very tough nut to crack- not only do they benefit from the best Skimmer Tanks which make ground tanks seem like a sick joke, they also get Jump Shoot Jump so are trying to play 2nd Ed.

So staying out of range is impossible, and outshooting them will be difficult.

I propose the opposite- you need to get in as close as possible, fast. Rather than giving them free reign to reposition and manoeuver- close with them forcing them to squirm out of the way.

The average Mech Tau list is:

Shas'el- Fireknife.
Shas'el- Fireknife.

Stealths- 4
Crisis- 2xFireknife. 2xShield drone.
Crisis- 2xFireknife. 2xShield drone.

Fire Warriors- 6x
Kroot- 10x
Kroot- 10x

Railhead
Railhead
Railhead

1500pts

For all my bravado- I have had very little success against Mech Tau.
Basically- Mech Tau>>Space Marines in the Rock/Paper/Scissors department. Just have to learn to accept this and be thankful if you pull out a draw.
 

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My tactic when I play my tau using friend is make him take leadership test because he's really unlucky with leadership, its only him failing Ld tests that make me win like the last time I battled him he shot my combat units to bits but I was able to do enough damage to force a Ld tests which basically won me the game.
 

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But how against the above Mech List?

Railheads are fearless.
Stealths are invisible.
Crisis are hiding.
Shas'o are untargetable.
Kroot are in hard cover and nobody cares if they or the FW run away.

No, I disagree. Just because you can't beat an army does not make them unbeatable.
I love these statements- so much confidence, yet absolutely no advice or constructive help given, no surprise there.
 

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Jeridian said:
But how against the above Mech List?

Railheads are fearless.
Stealths are invisible.
Crisis are hiding.
Shas'o are untargetable.
Kroot are in hard cover and nobody cares if they or the FW run away.
I maybe be becoming blind but I can't see it, what army do you use against the Tau?

If space marine deepstrike terminators and shoot the crap out of them and then charge or land raider rush with lightening clawed terminators it it.
 

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The 'toughest' army I would bring is my GT SM army.

Master- Bolt pistol, power sword, combat shield, frags, Infiltrate.
-Command Squad- 8x B.p, ccw. 2xMeltagun. Vet.Sgt- Power fist. Infiltrate.

Dreadnought- Assault cannon, power fist, extra armour.
-Drop Pod

Tactical Squad- 8x 2xPlasma. Vet.Sgt- Power fist. Infiltrate
Tactical Squad- 8x 2xPlasma. Vet.Sgt- Power fist. Infiltrate
Tactical Squad- 6x 1xPlasma. 1xLascannon.
Tactical Squad- 6x 1xPlasma. 1xLascannon.

Tornado
Tornado

Predator- Twin-lascannon, heavy bolters, smoke.
Predator- Twin-lascannon, heavy bolters, smoke.

Total 1500pts

If space marine deepstrike terminators and shoot the crap out of them and then charge or land raider rush with lightening clawed terminators it it.
Terminators are a tough nut for Tau to crack, but then that would require tailoring to beat the army- which kind of proves my point Mech Tau >> SM's. The Tau army doesn't have to tailor to beat me.

Land Raider? Seriously, even against a 'normal' enemy it is a turn 1 VP prize, but against 3 Railheads?
Lightning claw termies- charge what? The Kroot or the FW's- either of which is barely half their cost, and is designed to be expendable.
 

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Jeridian said:
Mech Tau (is there any other kind?).
I field 50 fire warriors, five crisis and two broadsides with an ethereal believe it or not. But like most fluffy armies they regularly get their arses handed to them.
 

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Mech Tau (is there any other kind?)
Yes, Hybrid Tau.

This is what I field and it is a very tough army for the most part. However, the thread was how to BEAT Tau, so to answer the question:

Hand to Hand. It is the single, guaranteed way to win vs Tau. Tau may have good shooting and mobility but a cunning player will always be able to bring the Tau into H2H combat at which point the Tau army folds like laundry. Even a Mech Tau list is succeptible to this as the Stealths and Crisis suits can be charged. I am not saying it is easy but once done, the Tau player usually needs to be either very lucky or able to play 3 turns in advance to counter it.

Again, close combat is the single biggest weakness in the Tau list. Leadership is a close second and forcing Morale checks is the second best tactic. But mainly, go for the charge. Even a Mech Tau list CAN'T kill enough of your army to stop everything coming its way, provided you have enough bodies.
 

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Agreed, absolutely. Tau in combat is a good thing.

But, especially with a Mech Tau list, this depends on the Tau player making a mistake- leaving a Crisis unit in charge range, not gunning down that combat squad, etc.

I don't like depending on my opponent making mistakes to win a game.
 
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