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Discussion Starter #1
Ok after playing my first game against the nids, I have decided to try something a little more "all comers" style.

HQ
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)

Troops
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
120-5 Pathfinders

92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)

92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)

Heavy Support
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)

I would keep the Farseer behind the Walkers and give them guide, thats 24 S6 shots with re-roles for 2 squads and another 24 shots from the last squad. These would kill guants/infantry. The pathfinders would take out the big stuff like Carnifax or other such things. The wave serpent and storm guardian will serve as my anti-tank units, although the war walkers can easily shoot down low armour vehicles.
 

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Looks tough on the shooty side however the return fire is going to hurt a ton.

War walkers are a double edged sword. On one hand you have some serious shooting even without guide. On the other hand you have open topped armor 10 walkers.

Which means everything from bolter fire up can take them out. Pathfinders are good IF your opponent has no assault units.

For example my standard chaos autocannon havoc squad (something a lot of chaos players take because who doesn't love autocannons) will literally rape (excuse the imagery) a war walker unit from out of it's range.
8 shots, 3's to hit, 4's to penetrate, and 3's to destroy them.
As well just about every other army out there has ranged heavy units that will quickly destroy your walkers.

Especially in general shooting at pathfinders is worthless. The guardians cannot even dream of matching the war walkers in threat level. You've given your opponent a easy target decision.

Open topped armor 10 is about as reliable as a wet noodle. Even non-open topped armor 10 on a non-skimmer is unreliable.

It's not that I would take them it's that you need to find a way to force your opponent to make tough target decisions.
2 armor 12 skimmer tanks full of guardians, pathfinders with 2+ covers saves, and AV10 walkers makes the call easy.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
War Walkers arent open topped anymore :biggrin: Plus, the walkers will only be set in a LOS area for troops. Any troop squad they shoot at will die, almost no question. Thus my Pathfinders can attack the tougher troops and the guardians go after the tanks that threaten my Walkers. All I need is an opening to dump another 24 shots into an autocannon. Its pretty easy to roll a couple glancing 6's with 24 S6 shots (and thats just from one squad) all I need to do is keep them from shooting and my walkers would have a fairly free rain. I think as long as I can stay away from major shots (like an autocannon) untill they are neutralized would be pretty effective. After melting a tank or two, the guardians will become a threat that any troops left would have to deal with, one way or another. Now you have the choice to either attack the pathfinders, and get shot up by warwalkers and guardians, or go after the walkers and hope to kill a few ( I WOULD HAVE NINE ON THE BOARD!!!) Lastly you could give into the damage that the guardians jsut made to the tanks and go after them, which I doubt any veteran player would do.

I recognize the weakness of the walkers, but can stay back and relax shooting at troops untill a few tanks are destroyed. All I have to do is star engine my wave serpents right next to your tanks, then even if they are destroyed, which can happen but not likely, the guardians will pop out and melta the hell out of the tanks (not as good as fire dragons, but cheaper) Now that my Guardians are there, they will have a much harder decision to make.
 

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Your real weakness is any kind of armored assault, whether that be high armor value vehicles or a solid assault marine/chaos marine force. Not a thing in your army will put up a fight in assault. Storm Guardians are essential there to die in droves, keeping an opponent in assault elsewhere. I would mash those squads away and turn them into banshees. An never forget to use that good ol executioner.
On the flip side, fodder armies will get pinned and shot up pretty well. Three squads of pathfinders, while looking good, pull too many points away from the rest of your list. You should only use one, and use them well. Keep the others as rangers and use the extra points to fund more units elsewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I think the biggest problem my list faces is against an assualting unit that is tucked away into a transport. At that point, my guardians would have to get those units to come out. If I dump my BL and Fusion guns into them, they should come out with ease. Then, if I dont enter into a slaughter house round of assualt, I can empty a mass load of walker or pathfinder fire into them. The biggest problem then is the heavy supports out there to kill my walkers. At that point I would need to stick my walkers out to kill something... I really need to proxy this list against my friend's chaos and other armies before I even consider dumping the money into it.

Idk, you can call the warwalkers weak, but 24 S6 shots from 3 scout squads is fricken insane.

Btw, against nidzillas, The warwalkers would rape any speedy gaunts (essentially destroying 3 squads in the first round if I have LOS and being a scout squad they most likely will), and the pathfinders would kill an average of 1.5 carnifax per round (or 2 if I get lucky). The Guardians could manage killing another 1-2 by turn 2. After that, you would have to choose what to shoot at because the pathfinders and the walkers can cause a lot of wounds to any of the big guys.
 

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I dig the war walkers, using the scatterlaser walkers alot myself. Nids can be hella nasty, but if they stick into a guardian squad, they are going to murder them. Not only keeping them stuck in combat for turns, but blocking line of sight by such a big melee, and then being next to your other units until the assault randomly ends. Mark those words. Pretty much any unit(save 2 or 3 worthless ones) will eat through the storm guardians and through them launch into your other units.
But all I can advise is test it against 3 armies. Marines, Nids, and Guard. See its weaknesses in the different game types and modify it accordingly.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the advise, I can sure use it :biggrin:. My list right now has actually won every game ive played, except against chaos (because I decided to experiment with kanandras and scorpions...) The only thing I completely FAIL against is nids so far...

Anyway, Ill try a few versions with the walkers and see whats good.

Thanks for the help guys.
 

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On a last note.. You can always use Vassal to test out your lists before A: buying your units and B: using a poor list that will get demolished. I wanted to try a Farseer with 9 Warlocks, the farseer with doom and the warlocks all with destructor. All in a wave serpent, jumping out and 9x heavy flamer attacks, rerolling wounds.
Everything except a terminator squad is getting all warm in toasty inside...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hmm... that actully sounds pretty good. If you gave them spears and the farseer guide as well, you could do some nasty damage to vehicles as well. I wanted to try something similar except a large amount of warlocks on jetbikes. Its really just rediculously expensive and not worth the points.

But in your case, they are all in a wave serpent which radically reduces the cost.

Tell me how well it does when you get the chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I just did some "test roling" and out of 5 roles for all my pathfinders, it took 2 squads to kill one carnifax on average. Im thinking that I should drop the other squad of 8 and 6 for something better for assualting, like some harlies and a shadowseer.
 

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how do you fare against necrons?.. I would think from your list that first turn is imperative for you and your walkers. The statistics to glance on a roll of a 6 from 24 shots is between 2-3 dice (if you hit on a 3). I know becasue thats all i can do:grin: I've only played eldar twice and it was close both times, even though I lost.
 

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HQ
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)
Two of these guys are just not required.... and RoWit are not that great considering they give you a better chance to succeed and a lot bebtter chance of taking a Perils of the Warp hit.

Guide is misplaced anyway, as you won't need it with that many shots, whereas something like Fortune on your Pathfinders would just be better. In the long run though, your best bet would be to simply drop both of these guys and replace them with Eldrad.
Troops
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
120-5 Pathfinders
These guys are great, but 4 squads of 6 each is more than enough and would give you a few extra points to use on other things.
92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)
If your using Star-Engines, and or the vehicle gets shaken, then the Weapons are pretty useless. Thus I really advocate for minimizing the weapons to something long ranged for the TL part (EML, BL, or Scatter) and just leave the Catipults alone. It saves you points in the long run and onve these guys gets close enough to drop the payload, then the guns are pretty welld one their job anyway.
92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)
Same as above; but you should consider a little variety here.... as two squads that work well on some things, also means two squads that don't work so well on other things.
Heavy Support
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
Have you ever considered EML's instead of Scatterlasers for at least one of the squads.... the added range can keep them out of harms way, the option of big template or high power shot is wicked for all comers lists, and the added AP value is just one more bonus for a very minimal points increase.

The army looks like it has potential; but at present I would say that it would be for fun games only as I don't see it competing well with any really fast armies, or really CC orientated armies, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
HQ
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)
88-Farseer (Runes of Wit, Guide, Singing Spear)
Two of these guys are just not required.... and RoWit are not that great considering they give you a better chance to succeed and a lot bebtter chance of taking a Perils of the Warp hit.

Guide is misplaced anyway, as you won't need it with that many shots, whereas something like Fortune on your Pathfinders would just be better. In the long run though, your best bet would be to simply drop both of these guys and replace them with Eldrad.
Troops
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
192-8 Pathfinders
120-5 Pathfinders
These guys are great, but 4 squads of 6 each is more than enough and would give you a few extra points to use on other things.
92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)
If your using Star-Engines, and or the vehicle gets shaken, then the Weapons are pretty useless. Thus I really advocate for minimizing the weapons to something long ranged for the TL part (EML, BL, or Scatter) and just leave the Catipults alone. It saves you points in the long run and onve these guys gets close enough to drop the payload, then the guns are pretty welld one their job anyway.
92-10 Storm Guardians (2 Fusion guns)
170-Wave Serpent (Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones)
Same as above; but you should consider a little variety here.... as two squads that work well on some things, also means two squads that don't work so well on other things.
Heavy Support
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
150-3 War Walkers (Scatter Lasers, Spirit Stones)
Have you ever considered EML's instead of Scatterlasers for at least one of the squads.... the added range can keep them out of harms way, the option of big template or high power shot is wicked for all comers lists, and the added AP value is just one more bonus for a very minimal points increase.

The army looks like it has potential; but at present I would say that it would be for fun games only as I don't see it competing well with any really fast armies, or really CC orientated armies, etc.
The farseer need to give guide to the walkers because they hit on 4s, thats half my shots going to waste.

Yeah, as I said earlier I will proble drop 2 squads for something else. Im toying with the idea of dropping the guardians, wave serpent, and one walker squad for a falcon, harlies, and fire dragons. Dont think I can get the points but ill try. Then the army would be better equiped for anti-tank and CC. It would also give my opponent more targets to wory about. Harlies will allow me to fend off the closest assualting unit while my pathfindes walkers and pathfinders can blow apart any other. The firedragons in the serpent can SE across to a good spot and wait to strike. Now the I just said that....where did that falcon go? Is it better for me to put the harlies into a Falcon or just fleet them? with a shadow seer they cant be targetted for more than 24 inches. I think I should drop the other serpent and put my dragons into the falcon. Hmmm or maybe drop the falcon and get 2 fire dragons squads in 2 wave serpents? what do you think?

My main Idea was to use my guardian/wave serpents for my anti-tank. If they are not destroyed by turn 2, the serpents can do some damage with BL. The other reason is that the guardians are MUCH cheaper then fire dragons. And with 4 melta weapons, I can still kill some tanks. Their main purpose is to die and die well.

The walkers can be outfitted with anything I really need. If Im facing a mech army, I can drop some points elsewhere and give them ELM or If im facing chaos, I can use Star cannons and get 12 S6 AP2 shots from 2 squads. I believe that would hurt a little more than a Dark Reaper squad for a lot less points.
 

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The farseer need to give guide to the walkers because they hit on 4s, thats half my shots going to waste. Yes but you have 176pts tied up in these two "soft" figures, when you could just take Eldrad fro a minimal points increase and gain a lot more, T=4, up to 3 powers a turn, any poer you like, and he is no CC slouch.

Yeah, as I said earlier I will proble drop 2 squads for something else. Im toying with the idea of dropping the guardians, wave serpent, and one walker squad for a falcon, harlies, and fire dragons. Dont think I can get the points but ill try. Then the army would be better equiped for anti-tank and CC. It would also give my opponent more targets to wory about. Harlies will allow me to fend off the closest assualting unit while my pathfindes walkers and pathfinders can blow apart any other. The firedragons in the serpent can SE across to a good spot and wait to strike. Now the I just said that....where did that falcon go? Is it better for me to put the harlies into a Falcon or just fleet them? with a shadow seer they cant be targetted for more than 24 inches. I think I should drop the other serpent and put my dragons into the falcon. Hmmm or maybe drop the falcon and get 2 fire dragons squads in 2 wave serpents? what do you think?
Biggest problem I have with Serpents is that they are not scoring units... and they go down easier than a Falcon (with defensive package)... Your Harlie and Dragon idea may be a good one, throw it on paper (re-write the list) and lets see where it goes.

My main Idea was to use my guardian/wave serpents for my anti-tank. If they are not destroyed by turn 2, the serpents can do some damage with BL. The other reason is that the guardians are MUCH cheaper then fire dragons. And with 4 melta weapons, I can still kill some tanks. Their main purpose is to die and die well.
Guardians are running you 92 points, when (97) 5 Fire Dragons, Exarch with Dragons Breath Flamer and Crackshot. Is only 5 points more and gives you so much more Anti-tank potential as well as the flamer for use on units in cover, not to mention all the BS is higher, and the figures are a little tougher (not much). The Serpent is cheaper than a Falcon (which I do for 185pts); but the trade off is loss of resilience and a Scoring Unit.

The walkers can be outfitted with anything I really need. If Im facing a mech army, I can drop some points elsewhere and give them ELM or If im facing chaos, I can use Star cannons and get 12 S6 AP2 shots from 2 squads. I believe that would hurt a little more than a Dark Reaper squad for a lot less points.
I have no issue with the Warwalkers. I just feel that you can outfit them as three different units all the time.... and it would work well. They could also be run almost as well with Vypers.... The points I spoke to you about (creation there of) could easily be made by trimming your PF's down to 6 figures each, which avout 120pts saved to use on Eldrad, 2 Falcons instead of Serpents, and FD's instead of Guardians.... do the math and check it out... you may actually like it.
HQ
Big E
Elite
5 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS
5 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS
Troops
6 PF's
6 PF's
6 PF's
6 PF's
FA
2 Vyper squad with Scatter and Shuri-can
2 Vyper squad with Scatter and Shuri-can
2 Vyper squad with EML's
HS
Falcon
Falcon
2 Warwalkers, Scatters

I think its pretty close to 1850. Gives you close to the same output of shots, more options, more mobility, more scoring units, more anti-tank.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks again for the help. Do you mind telling me what upgrades you would put on the vypers/falcons and what the reasoning is?
 

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HQ
(210) Big E This guy can hang back and Fortune pathfinders or guide Vypers/Warwalkers as needed, not to mention his ability to shut down enemy Psychers (RoWard), or his other powers, or his personnal abilities.
Elite
(113) 6 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS
(113) 6 FD's, Ex with DBF and CS Both of these units go into the Falcons and they are great for anti-tank. But they don't stop there, they can take out small termie groups, and if use together can be as erious threat to most infantry squads. Also the Flamers are solid against any enemy in cover.
Troops
(120) 6 PF's
(120) 6 PF's
(120) 6 PF's
(120) 6 PF's I think you know how to basically use these guys; but don't forget, they can actually get 1st turn assaults if you infiltrate them, use their scout move, and get first turn to move and assault (good against things like Necron Destroyers).
FA
(140) 2 Vyper squad with Scatter and Shuri-can
(140) 2 Vyper squad with Scatter and Shuri-can
(130) 2 Vyper squad with EML's There are no vehicle upgrades on any of these. Use range/terrain to keep them working, and through mass fire they can often eliminate anything that would get a return shot.
HS
(200) Falcon, pulse, Shuri-can, catipult, HF, SS, VE and Star Engine
(200) Falcon, pulse, Shuri-can, catipult, HF, SS, VE and Star Engine Run them right across the table on turn 1 (use divination to re-located them accordingly if you need to), and set them up so that your rear armour is facing the enemies table edge. On turn 2, the FD's can get out before the falcons move to shoot anything appropriate, or they whole thing can re-locate up to 12" and then have the FD's get out and shoot. The Flacons are mostly for Transport and to make enemies do target priority tests if they want to shoot the FD's, also move you Falcons to be between the FD's and the enemy target so that its almost impossible to assault the Fd's.
(120) 2 Warwalkers, ScattersAgain, I don't go for any vehicle upgrades here, just use the 36" range and mass fire to eliminate priority targets first. Also consider the fact that Eldrad's divination can re-locate this unit pre-game, and they have a scout move on top of that.

Totals 1846pts, 12 scoring units, 47 Figures This may not be a Competiion level list; but bet it could do well enough regardless of enemy.

I had the points (when I did the math, so I added a couple FD's) The army has no Assault to speak of; but with the 44+ str=6 shots, all the FD's and PF's shooting, etc... I think that it may not need any Assault. Just stay away from certain enemies while you work on other things.... and use decent target priority to trim the enemy down each turn. With some really Resilient units, and some supper fast and shooty units I think this army is pretty cool. I also hope this kind of stuff is helping you out, as I really like the Alaitoc/Saim-Hann blend you have going.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
how do you think this would do? replacing one squad of FDs for Harlies and one falcon for a prism. It would give me a good assualting squad and a good anti-tank, ant-troop also.
 

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There is nothing wrong with that idea as long as you balance the points between the 2 new units correctly and configure them effeciently.
As both Harlies and the Fireprism are excellent units as are the FD's and the Falcon, their just different and need to be set-up and used accordingly.

Write up the list and your ideas for the use, and I'll go over some tactics with you, if you like.

CaHG
 

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Discussion Starter #20
HQ
210-The so called "Big E"

Troops
152-10 Dire Avengers (Exarch, DA SC, BladeStorm)
155-WaveSerpent (Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, VE, SS)

144-6 Path Finders
144-6 Path Finders
144-6 Path Finders

Elites
118-6 Fire Dragons (Exarch, Dragon Breath, Crack Shot)
178-6 Harlequin (5 Harle. Kisses, Shadow Seer, Troupe Master)

Fast Attack
65-Vyper (ELM)
65-Vyper (ELM)
60-Vyper (Scatter Laser)

Heavy Support
210-Falcon (Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, HF, VE, SE, SS)
205-Falcon (Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, HF, VE, SS)

The Harlequin move up in Falcon number 2 and assualt in turn 2. Then they work their magic in CC, moving from target to target with HaR. The falcon then moves behind cover and attacks where needed. The DA wait for a promising infantry unit and wipe them out. The Pathfinders either pick off Harle. leaftovers or go after HQ and tough units. The Vypers stay back and shoot tanks/Infantry and wait to score in missions. Mean While, the Fire Dragons move across the board in the other Falcon with SE in turn one. Turn two, they move where needed to do same damage to tanks/tough squads. If I work it right, I could move my way with the Harles from squad to squad until im in the same general area of the DA, creating a good striking force to clean up whatever is left. Eldrad will either hang back and help the vypers and pathfinders, move up near the harlies, or go with the DA. Not sure exactly what good he is in this type of an army, maybe you can enlighten me?

Anyway, I think this is a solid list against most opponents. But, I still see trouble going against a nidzilla type army. Any Suggestions?
 
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