[SHarrington]

In the Tyranid Codex on page 54, under Limited Sentience the entry for a Mycetic Spore says:

The Mycetic Spore automaically shoots the cosest enemy unit in each shooting phase unless it is engaged in close combat.

Two of the weapons available for the Spore are Large Blast Markers. (Barbed Strangler and Cluster Spines.

On page 30 of the BRB, under BLAST, it says:

You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your models is even grazed by it.

So what happens if the closest unit to the Mycetic is so close that it is impossible to place the blast marker without hitting itself?

Both rules are definitive. Neither allows for an "if possible" scenario.
I've had opponents tell me that it cannot fire. I've had opponents tell me it fires and hits itself.
Neither type of opponent could back it up with rulings though. It was always based on what was more to their own advantage.

What do you think?

 

[KingOfCheese]

I would say that you can not shoot at the unit if the template will touch the spore.

 

[Loki1416]

Seems to me that it would have to be one of those worked out situations before hand so you both agree on it. Either the shot is not taken due to the blast marker touching a friendly unit and the shot is just forgotten. Or, it's switched to the CLOSEST enemy model that CAN be shot. Either or, if it was me in the game against the nids, I'd be ok with both.

 

[Unforgiven302]

That one is pretty self explanatory. It cannot hit itself or any of it's own units. That overrides the must fire rule. Think of it as an automatic miss.

 

[SHarrington]

That one is pretty self explanatory. It cannot hit itself or any of it's own units. That overrides the must fire rule. Think of it as an automatic miss.

While I don't disagree with you, Unforgiven302, I think that your post might be the first time I have seen someone say "rule book trumps codex" so matter of factly.

I too feel that it shouldn't fire, but I don't have any basis or justification from any book or precedent for my feeling.
Can you provide a precedent where the Rulebook should override codex and thus solve this? I for one don't actually feel its self explanatory.

 

[OpTi]

In order for a rule to do something the BRB forbids it must specificaly state it can do so.

In the case of the spore it does not state that the rule for intentionly hitting itself or friendly models does not apply. Therefore the rule still applies

 

[darklove]

I agree with OpTi, the Codex says that it has to shoot at the nearest visible enemy but it does not say that the standard rules for shooting no longer apply.

That said, think long and hard about putting a large blast weapon on a spore, the blast can still scatter onto your own units.

 

[forkbanger]

In your scenario (choosing to fire it's blast weapon, and finding that the template would then touch the spore), if you couldn't place the template you couldn't legally shoot. If you fired at something else, you break the Mindless rule, if you place your template touching the firer, you break the blast weapon rules.

You'd end up stuck in a position of trying to shoot but never being able to - counting it as an automatic miss breaks neither rule and let's you carry on with the game.

Mycetic Spores still have ripper tentacles when you take weapons for them, so you could choose to fire those instead of the blast weapon and avoid this situation...

 

[SHarrington]

In your scenario (choosing to fire it's blast weapon, and finding that the template would then touch the spore), if you couldn't place the template you couldn't legally shoot. If you fired at something else, you break the Mindless rule, if you place your template touching the firer, you break the blast weapon rules.

You'd end up stuck in a position of trying to shoot but never being able to - counting it as an automatic miss breaks neither rule and let's you carry on with the game.

Mycetic Spores still have ripper tentacles when you take weapons for them, so you could choose to fire those instead of the blast weapon and avoid this situation...

Well put and a good enough answer for me.

As for the ripper tentacles, you have to auto fire your weapons. the problem is the Spore is a Monstorous Creature, so it can fire two weapons a turn. You don't get to choose one of the two.

Other then that, I think I'm satisfied.

You must fire. You cannot place the template. Counts as an automiss.
That works for me.

My problem was I kept hearing "your not allowed to fire" and I was calling BS on that. Auto miss, although the same end result, has rules to support it.

Thanks.

 

[Flame80010]

all we need to do is add a single word... then problem solved

The Mycetic Spore automaically shoots the cosest LEGAL enemy unit in each shooting phase unless it is engaged in close combat.

meaning the lostest unit that it can target without hitting itself and that isnt in combat, if no potential targets witin 6" of the Spore exsist it may not shoot (or w/e the rule is)

 

[forkbanger]

I'm pretty sure you don't get to add words to the rules.

 

[lokis222]

yeah, but we may as well. that codex is so overdue for an faq. this is like issue 1,974,933,001 so far discovered with the new tyranid codex.

 

[forkbanger]

Most of the major issues with the Tyranid codex have proved to be issues with the main ruleset.

The Doom of Malantai versus transports and Terror From the Deep targetting units are reflections of problems with the writing of the transport and deep strike rules, respectively.

The 'Close Combat Weapons' header is the main offender in the Tyranid rulebook - most of the other issues have been people overreading or misapplying rules - Shieldwall, for example.

 

[Unforgiven302]

While I don't disagree with you, Unforgiven302, I think that your post might be the first time I have seen someone say "rule book trumps codex" so matter of factly.

I too feel that it shouldn't fire, but I don't have any basis or justification from any book or precedent for my feeling.
Can you provide a precedent where the Rulebook should override codex and thus solve this? I for one don't actually feel its self explanatory.

It's not about rulebook VS Codex, it's about following a rule or set of rules that apply to any given situation and that can be followed to a consensual outcome. If you cannot hit your own units, but must shoot, then you should feel that the idea of it automatically missing is a fair answer. A unit is never going to shoot itself willingly, that is the justification I would need to say you can't place the template and the shot is discarded. If you scattered onto your own units, that is a different story, as luck had a hand in determining the outcome and that is covered in the rulebook. It would just be the easier way to handle the situation and keep the game rolling along smoothly. That is my theory.

The only other choice is to place the template so it covers as many of the unit being targeted while not touching your own unit. This may cause you to not cover as many enemy models as totally possible, but it is covering as many enemy models as you possibly can in that situation.

The rules aren't black and white, as we all know, so we must decide on the fly how fair the gray area in between is for everyone involved. For me, it is either calling the shot an automatic miss, (which is a fast and simple call) or covering as many models as possible without touching your own units even if it means only one model is partially under the template. If that is the most you can cover, then that is the most available at that time. k:

 

[lokis222]

If you cannot hit your own units, but must shoot, then you should feel that the idea of it automatically missing is a fair answer. A unit is never going to shoot itself willingly, that is the justification I would need to say you can't place the template and the shot is discarded.

Not sure I agree.

It automatically shoots at the closest enemy unless it is engaged in close combat. Seems to me that it might be that the 'nid player has to place the template regardless. The wording looks like it forces the spore to shoot.

The reason for this is it has to shoot. In the shooting phase, the placing of the blast marker is a pre-shooting thing and it is even a pre-measuring thing. You do it before you measure to see it what you are doing is okay. Normally, you would see that you would hit your own models, so you can't. You haven't lost your shot, you just have to pick another target. However, by limited sentience, you must shoot. You place the blast marker. See that you have hit some of your own guys, but you still have to go to step 2, measuring, and then step three, four, etc.

You must shoot. The placing of the blast marker over your own guys means that you may not pick that target by the rulebook. However, with limited intelligence, you don't pick your target. It is pre-picked and has to be shot at.

An auto miss does not seem to fit.

 

[OpTi]

P30 of the BRB sates "You may not place the blast marker so that so that the base or hull of any of your models is even grazed by it."

picking of targets is irrelevent you can't place the template so you can't fire.

 

[darklove]

Auto-miss is the only sensible interpretation. The Spore only has to shoot at the nearest enemy, it does not gain any ability that overrides BRB rules on shooting mechanics.
By the wording of the rule the Spore would not even need line of sight to be able to shoot at enemies, are you saying that this is also the case?

 

[lokis222]

Auto-miss is the only sensible interpretation. The Spore only has to shoot at the nearest enemy, it does not gain any ability that overrides BRB rules on shooting mechanics.
By the wording of the rule the Spore would not even need line of sight to be able to shoot at enemies, are you saying that this is also the case?

No, but thanks for showing another way in which that was a poorly worded rule.

I think the auto-miss is a fair compromise, but the rule is open to interpretation. Like the guy said on the first page, one word would have made that rule crystal clear.