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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone else feel an opportunity was missed with ADB's Betrayal?

What if it turned out the implant in Angron's mind was removable and that Angron was even more brilliant of a tactician than say Guilliman without it only in the end he chooses to keep it on for various personal reasons?

I raise this question because it's always bothered me that we've never seen a glimpse of Angron's potential as a real Primarch.
 

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Closet Dictator
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You are right we never see the early Angron in any great detail, it is mainly mid break down, but then we see most of the primarchs that way, I would say that BL may do pre great crusade novels and cover the primarchs early days and maybe elaborate on them some way, you never know
 

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The Emperor has stated that not even he could remove the nails from Angron's head without killing him.

If Angron and Guilliman had swapped places in terms of where the warp powers sent them, I'm sure Angron would have been just as successful as Guilliman, and Guilliman just as much of a berserker as Angron.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@oldman: what's burdensome is that Angron was given the implants as an infant making Angron's background too rigid for change.

@Sol: Yes I am aware the Emperor said he could not.

However my point is that the removal could be possible via other means.

Perhaps Horus, using his new allies in the Warp, could have briefly illuminated Angron as to what he could be/feel like with the implant's removal.

I think it would have been interesting to see a truly reinvented Angron only for him to willingly reverse the process eventually.
 

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[MENTION=11640]

However my point is that the removal could be possible via other means.

Perhaps Horus, using his new allies in the Warp, could have briefly illuminated Angron as to what he could be/feel like with the implant's removal.

I think it would have been interesting to see a truly reinvented Angron only for him to willingly reverse the process eventually.
The warp did, through Lorgar's scheme, Angron was freed from the Nails when he became a Daemon Prince. In Betrayer Lorgar basically admits that it was the only way for Angron to be saved from an inevitable sdeath
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah let's not say he was freed. He became even angrier than before. He's just an animal now without any coherent thoughts.
 

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Bane of Empires
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I raise this question because it's always bothered me that we've never seen a glimpse of Angron's potential as a real Primarch.
Isn't that the point? That's what makes the story of Angron so tragic. A twist where Angron willingly chose to keep the Nails wouldn't have made for a great tale in my opinion.

And as has been said, Lorgar did free his brother from the Butcher's Nails. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
He seemed pretty coherent during his conversation with Kharn on Lorgar's ship.
I was referring to post-transformation.

If you meant post-T then I disagree. He was drooling and just said 'skulls for the skull throne.'

Isn't that the point? That's what makes the story of Angron so tragic. A twist where Angron willingly chose to keep the Nails wouldn't have made for a great tale in my opinion.
Surprised to hear you say that. I think it would add a lot more complexity to Angron other than 'rawr I'm mad because my friends died!'

And as has been said, Lorgar did free his brother from the Butcher's Nails. :wink:
Semantics. ^_^
 

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I was referring to post-transformation.
If you meant post-T then I disagree. He was drooling and just said 'skulls for the skull throne.'
His words seemed more coherent than that. He's still capable of formulating thoughts and getting them across to others, they're just more concentrated towards a singular purpose, being the pleasing of Khorne. Its extremely likely, however, that with time spent as a DP in the Eye of Terror will cause him to become less and less coherent and act more like a mindless beast. I don't think it has really been touched upon, but someone correct me if i'm wrong.
 

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I'm sorry for veering off topic, but.... If the primarchs really are tough enough to survive sniper rounds to the head etc. how come the nails have any effect at all? Wouldn't Angron's brain just rerout all the info, regenerate and continue business as normal. Not to mention it seems unlikely anyone on such a backwater planet could pierce the oh-so-mighty primarch skin..
 

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I'm sorry for veering off topic, but.... If the primarchs really are tough enough to survive sniper rounds to the head etc. how come the nails have any effect at all? Wouldn't Angron's brain just rerout all the info, regenerate and continue business as normal. Not to mention it seems unlikely anyone on such a backwater planet could pierce the oh-so-mighty primarch skin..
To be fair, the Nails were implanted when he was a child, and may not have had his full suite of super abilities yet.

Enter my pet theory: the Nails are a Khornate artifact. Hyper-aggression and anti-psyker? Totally in Khorne's wheelhouse. It does not appear that the inhabitants of Nuceria were Khorne worshippers, worldwide combat games notwithstanding, so they may not have known what they were dealing with. Indeed, the Nails seem to be fairly unique, as they are not mentioned as being widely used on gladiator-slaves. The inventors of the device could well have been Khorne worshippers though.
 

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I'm not so sure about Angron the DP being mindless. His actions in the original war for Armageddon show him to be a capable Khornate Chaos general, as well as champion. Unless, of course, Khornate generals do nothing more than materialize and beat feet to the nearest thing to kill until something stops them :mad:

On the other hand, there must have been some strategic thinking going into creating a situation allowing for the highest rate of mortal death. Otherwise, they land on a backwater planet, kill all 500 inhabitants, and wonder why the IG and Space Wolves aren't coming to the party.
 

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The Emperor has stated that not even he could remove the nails from Angron's head without killing him.

If Angron and Guilliman had swapped places in terms of where the warp powers sent them, I'm sure Angron would have been just as successful as Guilliman, and Guilliman just as much of a berserker as Angron.
This is a null point and irrelevant. The Emperor made the sons, all apparently with a particular frame of mind and operation for the job - for example, the legions espousing particular tactics, which lo and behold, Primarch's half the galaxy away, are able to perfect. Hence the emperor had particular ideas for the legions at the start. The Warhounds, as the 12th became known, were still agressive attackers, the XXth were (in all likelihood) the rumoured spec ops Ghost legion, the fists the defenders, the IW the siege breakers, etc, even before the Primarch arrived.

And Malus Darkblade, if all you've got from the amount of page-time that Angron has got, (out of all the Primarchs, I think he rates up there the highest, or after Fulgrim. Horus has comparatively little actually mentioned about him despite the focus of the series), is "rawr friends dead" then I don't think there's much more to be said on the matter. Either you're trolling hard or you need to read Lord of the Red Sands by ADB. That is about the easiest summation of Angron that you can get that spells it in black and white.



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I'm sorry for veering off topic, but.... If the primarchs really are tough enough to survive sniper rounds to the head etc. how come the nails have any effect at all? Wouldn't Angron's brain just rerout all the info, regenerate and continue business as normal. Not to mention it seems unlikely anyone on such a backwater planet could pierce the oh-so-mighty primarch skin..
That was the problem. His primarch body was trying to heal the damage the nails were doing and the nails were burrowing themselves deeper at the same time. Neither side could win.

I'm not so sure about Angron the DP being mindless. His actions in the original war for Armageddon show him to be a capable Khornate Chaos general, as well as champion. Unless, of course, Khornate generals do nothing more than materialize and beat feet to the nearest thing to kill until something stops them :mad:

On the other hand, there must have been some strategic thinking going into creating a situation allowing for the highest rate of mortal death. Otherwise, they land on a backwater planet, kill all 500 inhabitants, and wonder why the IG and Space Wolves aren't coming to the party.
That right there is why GW shot themselves in the foot. The original version of khorne wasn't about about much blood you could spill, it was being a good warrior and honor and all that.

If you take it like that then DP angron is coherent and all that. But if you take the blood for the blood god approach he's not.
 

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I was referring to post-transformation.

Surprised to hear you say that. I think it would add a lot more complexity to Angron other than 'rawr I'm mad because my friends died!'
It's far more than that.

Think of the life Angron led. Blood and death and pain was all he knew from infancy. Despite his great physical power he was powerless to effect his own agency; he performed as those on high whimed. As a counter balance to the powerlessness and brutality of the arena sands he had brotherhood. Brotherhood with his fellow condemned. The sum total of his positive experiences are bound in these figures, in these relationships.

Then they break free, they achieve agency, they can determine their own future. They can exercise free will. Angron excercises that free will, he makes the conscious choice to die with his brothers. For once in his life he gets to choose something.

Instead he's plucked away from them by an uncaring and distant figure. A figure who again removes his free will. Angron is once more chained to the whims of another and to perform. He must do this for a father in name only, who he doesn't love and a legion he has no attachment to.

Think on that. Angron is denied his free will, his ability to choose; the one, single most important thing he fought for and achieved. Instead he's consigned to a war he doesn't care about, for a cause he doesn't believe in, with a legion he doesn't know and a father who is a unflinching tyrant.

Just imagine the mental stress and fatigue someone in Angron's position must have, then add to that a constant buzzing in your skull. A maddening pain that can only be supressed by blind bloodshed. Then the frustration he must feel with the knowledge that he is damaged and broken, a sad reflection of what he could have been, a sad failing in light of his brothers perfections.

That is Angron.

Men have gone mad, or killed or betrayed for far less.
 

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I definitely liked the story, thought the portrayal of Angron is something that I still have a problem with. Its lore now, but I would have liked a glimpse of Angron's mindset and capability as a primarch. At this point the nails have taken full control. There is some realism in terms of how something like that could make him effective as well as messed up. However, another part to why I find Angron's personality quite flawed is the fact that he is a Primarch with a lot of responsibilities. Someone like this in charge of a fleet along with legions is almost unbelievable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
It's far more than that.

Think of the life Angron led. Blood and death and pain was all he knew from infancy. Despite his great physical power he was powerless to effect his own agency; he performed as those on high whimed. As a counter balance to the powerlessness and brutality of the arena sands he had brotherhood. Brotherhood with his fellow condemned. The sum total of his positive experiences are bound in these figures, in these relationships.

Then they break free, they achieve agency, they can determine their own future. They can exercise free will. Angron excercises that free will, he makes the conscious choice to die with his brothers. For once in his life he gets to choose something.

Instead he's plucked away from them by an uncaring and distant figure. A figure who again removes his free will. Angron is once more chained to the whims of another and to perform. He must do this for a father in name only, who he doesn't love and a legion he has no attachment to.

Think on that. Angron is denied his free will, his ability to choose; the one, single most important thing he fought for and achieved. Instead he's consigned to a war he doesn't care about, for a cause he doesn't believe in, with a legion he doesn't know and a father who is a unflinching tyrant.

Just imagine the mental stress and fatigue someone in Angron's position must have, then add to that a constant buzzing in your skull. A maddening pain that can only be supressed by blind bloodshed. Then the frustration he must feel with the knowledge that he is damaged and broken, a sad reflection of what he could have been, a sad failing in light of his brothers perfections.

That is Angron.

Men have gone mad, or killed or betrayed for far less.
To me it's a case of telling vs showing. We're told Angron is this and that and that he suffered this and that.

I just never connected with him or pitied him. I haven't read Lord of the Red Sands so maybe that will make me view him in the same way you do.
 

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To me it's a case of telling vs showing. We're told Angron is this and that and that he suffered this and that.

I just never connected with him or pitied him. I haven't read Lord of the Red Sands so maybe that will make me view him in the same way you do.
I would have liked to see chaos use a less chaotic form to manipulate Angron's conversion to Khorne. Much like Fulgrim, Logar, and Magnus who were manipulated because of the most basic traits that could be viewed as being honorable then perversed. I originally thought we would see Angron's more honorable side. We saw some of it during the fight against Guilliman but because of the butcher's nails we couldn't fully feel that fall from grace.

I almost feel the series has been forced to move along. I don't imagine we will go back to the stories where we see the fallen primarchs in their more loyal forms.
 
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