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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #1

HQ
Ezekiel
Command Squad with Standard of Devastation and Apothecary

TROOPS
Tactical Squad (10-man) with Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun
Tactical Squad (10-man) with Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun

ELITES
Mortis Dreadnought with Twin Linked Autocannons
Mortis Dreadnought with Twin Linked Autocannons

ALLIES
HQ
Mephiston

TROOPS
Assault Squad (10-man) with 2 Meltaguns, Power Sword
Assault Squad (10-man) with 2 Meltaguns, Power Sword

FORTIFICATIONS
Aegis Defence Line with Quad-Gun

Got a decent chunk of points left over, about 275 if I remember rightly. Essentially, the army refuses a flank, and uses the Blood Angels to rapidly advance and take enemy objectives/engage them in combat while the Dark Angels and Mortis cover them at range with strong anti-infantry and anti-air presence. I was thinking to add another Mortis or a Furioso, and maybe something like a Sanguinary Priest to make the BA a bit scarier.

Midnight
 

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As far as the Priest idea goes, it's a good idea. Give him the PS in the squad and use the actual sergeant as a dummy for challenges while the Priest wades through at WS5.

There's a 20 point difference between an auto/las predator from BA to DA...which just means fast isn't worth it, but the tank might do quite well adding a bit of long range S9 to your anti armour. If someone has some AV14 stuff and takes down those assault squads with meltas you might have some issues.

I'm not too familiar with Ezekiel, but Mephiston...well, hide him behind that BA advance and you should have a blast when he jump out in front. It's (somewhat) annoying that he can't join a unit, but ah well.

So, for the rest of the points I would say: Priest and something else to help with higher armour values. If you could take some of the anti armour pressure off one of those RAS, you could switch them over to Flamers and two Hand Flamers for the sergeant, with the Priest owning the sword. It's a fun combo for the devastation of troop selections and even some more specialized units that might be caught unawares by bad dice and 4 flame templates.

EDIT: thanks for more Slayer, by the way. Heavy'd up my day nicely.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #3
290pts to spend, exactly.

As far as the Priest idea goes, it's a good idea. Give him the PS in the squad and use the actual sergeant as a dummy for challenges while the Priest wades through at WS5.
Good plan. Don't have the Codex on me, but I think they're 80pts or thereabouts with the Jump Pack. With Power Weapon, that's 95, so down to 195pts.

There's a 20 point difference between an auto/las predator from BA to DA...which just means fast isn't worth it, but the tank might do quite well adding a bit of long range S9 to your anti armour. If someone has some AV14 stuff and takes down those assault squads with meltas you might have some issues.
Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 2 Meltaguns, 2 Additional Bikers. An extra speed element added, quite tough, can Scout, has Meltaguns. 154pts. Down to 41pts left.

I'm not too familiar with Ezekiel, but Mephiston...well, hide him behind that BA advance and you should have a blast when he jump out in front. It's (somewhat) annoying that he can't join a unit, but ah well.
Ezekiel is a Librarian on crack - he's much more of a supporter than Mephiston, but with 2 powers and Divination/Telepathy access, as well as Inner Circle (Fearless and PE: CSM) and gives everyone within 6" +1WS. He's mainly there for Divination and character tanking at 2+ armour with 3 wounds though, helps the Command Squad out with the survivability issue of Power Armour - this way they have 4+ cover, 2+ armour and FnP unless you can angle around Ezekiel, in which case you're getting closer to the bolters (ie not a good plan).

41pts left. I had another build which dropped Mephiston for a Jump Pack Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius/Blood Lance and a Ravenwing Darkshroud to give all the Assault Marines 4+ cover saves, but they're still just Assault Marines at the end of the day and with only torrent fire/attacks in the list, this army needs the hard counter to deal with some big bad or other.

Midnight
 

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If you can snag that RW squad I'd definitely try for the flamer squad, but that's me. A RAS w/2x MG and PS is 5 points more than RAS w/2x F and 2x HF. Add that to the 5 points over you were in your guess on the Priest (at 90pts for a JP and PS) and now you have 51 points left over. Do I smell a RW attack bike with a MM??

Stick with Mephy over the Libby. BA librarians without Terminator armour just aren't that viable in CC against anything that is viable for CC in my experience. They are better used (I think) in buffing out a tactical squad behind an ADL than buffing up a RAS charging the enemy.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #5
If you can snag that RW squad I'd definitely try for the flamer squad, but that's me. A RAS w/2x MG and PS is 5 points more than RAS w/2x F and 2x HF. Add that to the 5 points over you were in your guess on the Priest (at 90pts for a JP and PS) and now you have 51 points left over. Do I smell a RW attack bike with a MM??
Unfortunately, you don't, as a Ravenwing Attack Bike with Multi-Melta is the same price as a Paladin :(. However, if I take out the Power Weapons on the Sergeants as you suggested, I could run either a Ravenwing Darkshroud (for Stealth on the Bikes and Assault Marines) or add another Sanguinary Priest (I think they're taken as units of 1-3 in one Elites slot?) to give redundancy by having both squads armed with a Priest, and add a Power Weapon-wielder to each unit.

Midnight
 

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Dang. It smelled so good...I guess the difference in price comes from their locator beacon maybe? They are 50 points out of the BA dex.

The Priests do come in the 1-3 units for a single Elites slot. Ditching the weapon on the sergeants and adding in Priests is good, just costly. Those two models are 180 points.

Does the Darkshroud offer Stealth to units not from the DA codex? Most things that effect units only effect units from the same codex, a la FnP from your Priests only working on fellow BA dex units.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #7
Dang. It smelled so good...I guess the difference in price comes from their locator beacon maybe? They are 50 points out of the BA dex.
Locator Beacon, Scout and Hit and Run for 5pts.

Does the Darkshroud offer Stealth to units not from the DA codex? Most things that effect units only effect units from the same codex, a la FnP from your Priests only working on fellow BA dex units.
Yes, there's no FAQ and it says 'Friendly models...', whereas the Standards specify 'friendly units from Codex: Dark Angels...', so I assume it does. Lovely with Shield of Sanguinius, the more I look at it the more I think GW push DA towards BA - Grim Resolve's second clause is completely irrelevant unless you ally in Combat Tactics as you have Krak Grenades and therefore cannot ever make use of OWAU anyway, Darkshroud/Shield of Sanguinius, the general offensive lean of BA and the contrasting defence of DA... I'm pretty sure that with the exception of Imperial Guard (who are, in allying terms, a GW cockup) BA are the best allies for DA.

Midnight

Midnight
 

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Locator Beacon, Scout and Hit and Run for 5pts.
Solid deal.

Grim Resolve's second clause is completely irrelevant unless you ally in Combat Tactics as you have Krak Grenades and therefore cannot ever make use of OWAU anyway
BA don't have access to the Combat Tactics special rule. I think it has to do with their ability to go wolfie berzerker with the Red Thirst. They have the Red Thirst, which potentially replaces ATSKNF, Descent of Angels, and Combat Squad special rules.

Darkshroud/Shield of Sanguinius
Yes a few times over. 4+ cover saves in a small bubble could be victorious out in the open.

BA are the best allies for DA
What about SW? I know so little about that chapter outside of some fluff I've gleaned from Thousand Suns and Prospero Burns. I very much agree though, I have a DW list with allied BA and a BA list with basically the DV set allied in and they are sick lists. The latter is to be tested on Sunday with all luck..
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #9
BA don't have access to the Combat Tactics special rule. I think it has to do with their ability to go wolfie berzerker with the Red Thirst. They have the Red Thirst, which potentially replaces ATSKNF, Descent of Angels, and Combat Squad special rules.
I know, I was referring to GW sheparding DA towards BA allies - they've included rules specifically to exclude DA from benefitting from the best bits of SM and SW.

What about SW? I know so little about that chapter outside of some fluff I've gleaned from Thousand Suns and Prospero Burns. I very much agree though, I have a DW list with allied BA and a BA list with basically the DV set allied in and they are sick lists. The latter is to be tested on Sunday with all luck..
Allies of Convenience - SW have nothing to really offer DA that BA can't do as Battle Brothers. SW do midfield with small elements in backfield and pushing upfield with Thunderwolves and Long Fangs, DA do backfield with long-range strikes from the Wings, while BA do fast assault upfield. I think DA and BA complement each other, and of course Battle Brother status helps a lot.

Midnight
 

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I was referring to GW sheparding DA towards BA allies
ah! I get it now :read:

Battle Brother status helps a lot
Doesn't it! Do units from an allied detachment that fall under 'allies of convenience' count as scoring/denial units? No BRB on me at the moment.

After seeing how much cheaper DA scouts are over BA scouts I might just paint the red armour on mine green...same with tactical squads!
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #11
Yes, Allies of Convenience Score, but their abilities and effects don't transfer (although Runic Weapons deny the DA powers, Throne damn it!). If I ran Space Wolf allies, it's be something like a Rune Priest, 10 Grey Hunters with Standard and 2 Meltas in a Rhino, 5 Grey Hunters with Melta in Razorback, Lone Wolf in TDA with Chainfist, maybe some Thunderwolves, but it doesn't give me the speedy combat force I need.

Midnight
 

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Even from seeing that I completely agree you can do better to compliment with BA. Luckily those are my two marine armies!

Apparently I have to spread some rep around before giving you some as well, this has been a good and informative conversation man.
 

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Kind of off topic but I found your conversation on DA and BA allies incredibly helpful so +rep for both of you.
 

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Yeah, I have a small army of BA already and a ton of DA so now I'm trying to figure out a good way to ally them to fit my play style and this conversation made me think about a lot of things.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #16
I tested out BA allies (albeit a very small contingent) yesterday and won twice, drew once (Reanimation Protocols + Scoring Warlord Trait = oh fuck this). I would heavily advise Mephiston if you've an iota of tactical sense. He's 'difficult' to use in that you can't just walk him up the field like a Land Raider, but that's wasting at least 50pts of his cost which is his size. He's so, so easy to hide it's not even funny. It was unusual for more than 2 units to be able to shoot him in a turn. He only died once, which was due to an error on my part and my opponent's annoying tendency to massively clutter the gaming table *glares* (admittedly, perhaps I should have noticed the Triarch Stalker before I hid Mephiston in front of it, but it was half painted and was on top of a Codex surrounded by dice and a cup). However, Mephiston's kill count was immense.

Falcoso can give you a full inventory, but from memory he killed in one game: 5 Immortals, an Annihilation Barge, 10 Warriors, a Tomb Spyder and a Necron Overlord. In the previous game, he killed a C'tan Shard and 2 Tomb Spyders in one combat (!), 10 Warriors, 3 Tomb Blades, 5 more Immortals, and another Barge. If you keep to the sides of the board and don't let him get exposed to enemy firepower he'll serve you very well indeed.

Next on my list to playtest is Assault Marines.

Midnight
 

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What point level were you playing at? I've never used Mephiston and I tend to try and stay away from really point heavy models but he is a beast. Glad to hear he worked out so well for you.
 

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Hmmm...I may ditch the Reclusiarch (unless I am fielding significant DC) and try out Mephiston. Could see it being fun having him work with my Deathwing.
 

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Rattlehead
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Discussion Starter #19
What point level were you playing at? I've never used Mephiston and I tend to try and stay away from really point heavy models but he is a beast. Glad to hear he worked out so well for you.
My gaming group never really plays at less than 2000pts. This was a game at just 2k, which is nice as Mephiston is easy to hide and easy to find combats to pile into but the enemy has no really worryingly powerful guns - I've found Mephiston to be less effective in Apocalypse as he's very expensive for what is, by Apocalypse standards, a fragile model. However, my opinions might be a little coloured by my Apocalypse experiences with him - losing 3 wounds to Perils making Wings of Sanguinius tests made him a lot less worrying than usual as he lost both his speed and durability.

I cannot advocate him enough in normal games though - a lot of people worry about his lack of invulnerable, but realistically he's either in cover or in combat, and if you're fighting something that's getting through T6 2+ armour and 5 wounds and can do so reliably after 6 Str10 AP3 Instant Death attacks rerolling 1s to hit and to wound, you're probably doing it wrong anyway.

Midnight
 

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I cannot advocate him enough in normal games though - a lot of people worry about his lack of invulnerable, but realistically he's either in cover or in combat, and if you're fighting something that's getting through T6 2+ armour and 5 wounds and can do so reliably after 6 Str10 AP3 Instant Death attacks rerolling 1s to hit and to wound, you're probably doing it wrong anyway.
He is a beast. Since he's expensive you have to support him well with the rest of your list, but he easily has the potential to be a wrecking ball swung at a building of lego.
 
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