[ckcrawford]

After rereading Betrayer, I couldn't help but see a similarity as well as a difference with Angel Exterminatus when analyzing Primarch relationships. Not going to lie, one of the novels was definitely a better read than the other, which may also hide perhaps a connection.

In one hand we have Fulgrim and Perturabo who seem to have similarities in terms of strive for perfection, and yet, their relationship was warped from the beginning of the book with Fulgrim's scheming. We see how far Fulgrim will go to get what he wants including sacrificing the entirety of his allies.

On the other hand, we have the relationship between Angron and Lorgar who have different backgrounds, ideals, and philosophies. One could see this in The Butcher's Nails and a little bit into Betrayer when Lorgar and his men see Angron's flaws. We also see how Angron and the World Eaters view the Word Bearers and Lorgar, even referring to them several times as cowards. However, we still see a bonding experience and need to cooperate despite those differences.

Some could debate good vs bad writing, or even coincidence that two primarchs stories were written about like that. However, I think there is some room to think they did this deliberately. But my question is what is the significance?

I feel that its suppose to represent two different sides of chaos some how. Its an issue because one could argue that the same problems of Angel Exterminatus could be seen in Betrayer. However the relationship between Lorgar and Angron seem too much pinnacle part that it overrides that appearance... at least to me.

I'm really interested in how people view the differences and similarities of the novels and any connection.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Fulgrim's manipulation of Perturabo was a critical part of his plan to gain Angel Exterminatus, it was his intention from the very beginning - the central element of his plan.

Lorgar's original intention was not to save Angron, it was nothing to do with Angron - it was to remove Guilliman and the XIIIth from the war by creating the Ruinstorm. IIRC it was Horus that demanded that Angron and the World Eaters accompany the Word Bearers to campaign amongst the Five Hundred Worlds. After a while Lorgar realised that Angron was dying and chose to try and save him, but it was never his central objective.

Aside from that we can analyse the character of both Lorgar & Fulgrim. Lorgar, despite his dedication to the Dark Gods, does not seem the person to willingly (or at least readily) betray a brother, friend or ally. Despite his corruption, he still seems to be fighting for what he thinks is right - for the betterment of Mankind (especially as of The First Heretic, although admittedly this seems less so as of Betrayer). Fulgrim, on the other hand, after his depraved corruption would seemingly do anything or betray anyone to achieve his goals.

 

[Over Two Meters Tall!]

I think both relationships show how easily the bonds of 'brotherhood' are set aside by the Traitor Primarchs and given completely to the expediency of the moment... and how easily both Perturabo and Angron lose their misguided personal ideals they had held so high.

 

[Vaz]

A ststement like that bears witness to the other relationships the primarchs have though.

Russ was a warrior alone. His (self appointed?) Role ensured he kept a distance. Guilleman was deemed pompous. Sanguinius was 'loved' but it is rarely expanded upon as to why he may have made warmaster other than sheer military potential. Dorn was pretty much despised outside of recognition of his ability. The khan wanted fuck all to do with Imperium and only real relationship was with Horus. Ferrus Manus only notable relationship was with Fulgrim. Corax hasn't really had much about him, but his nature is hardly capable of forming a close relationship - always referred to as being on the fringe. Vulkan seems to have been 'liked' but maybe in the simple headed child manner (my reading between the lines, anyway) due to his tertiary role in the fighting sometimes. Which leaves the Lion, and we all know how secret and trusting he is.

The loyalists were thrown together through a love of the Imperium, not through their belief in one other, and often despite of that, as with Khan, and Ferrus. That relationship between primarchs was stronger in many places than the fractious elements between the loyalists. After all look at how FM reacted when he was told he was too far in advance - which then subsequently got him killed.

That brotherhood is not there, and something many people miss, as the trope is usually lots of disparate good allies coming together in the end and becoming victorious and friends (Tolkien fantasy). In this, the 'goodies' simply set aside their differences for a time due to necessity.

 

[ckcrawford]

I did like the view of Lorgar towards Sanguinus and even Russ... it seemed revealing. But CotE, that was a good analysis. I actually am forced to agree with you, though I must confess I was on the side that thought (maybe I still do... I'm not sure) that Lorgar was trying to save his brother.

 

[gen.ahab]

I did like the view of Lorgar towards Sanguinus and even Russ... it seemed revealing. But CotE, that was a good analysis. I actually am forced to agree with you, though I must confess I was on the side that thought (maybe I still do... I'm not sure) that Lorgar was trying to save his brother.

It was A goal, but it wasn't one of Lorgar's original goals. That being said, he didn't know the nails were killing Angron, though when he found out they were, he made plans to fix it. It just happened that he could fix the issue and accomplish his primary objective at the same time.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I did like the view of Lorgar towards Sanguinus and even Russ... it seemed revealing. But CotE, that was a good analysis. I actually am forced to agree with you, though I must confess I was on the side that thought (maybe I still do... I'm not sure) that Lorgar was trying to save his brother.

I also think that Lorgar was genuinely trying to save Angron. It just so happened that, as gen said, Lorgar's quest to save Angron readily coincided with his primary objective of knocking the Ultramarines out of the war. It was a bonus.

In contrast, Fulgrim's intention to ascend to daemonhood utterly relied on him duping/sacrificing Perturabo.

The two separate examples can't really be compared to be honest.

 

[Doom wolf]

Didn't read angel exterminatus -yet-, but I've read Betrayer.

Lorgar tried to wholehearted to save Angron, and I think there's a link of reluctant brotherhood between twe two.

Lorgar really tried to enlighten Angron by telling him about the night of the wolf. And he came back to Nuceria while there wasn't really any reason to.

I always tought, that by the core and when wroted by ADB, Lorgar was an idealist and an emotional guy. He wasn't ready to lead a legion and was kinda short-sighted because he always empathize with people around him.

He empatize with Angron, and I think he tried in a twisted way to help him not only physically, but also morally, personnally. Lorgar's not only a primarch, he's a man of religion.

Irony is, altough he was the first corrupted primarch, I think Lorgar wasn't completely corrupted by Chaos, like Fulgrim, or Angron once he was "healed".

Just my two cents.

 

[randian]

Damning Angron to eternal corruption and slavery is a bizarre definition of "help"

 

[Doom wolf]

Damning Angron to eternal corruption and slavery is a bizarre definition of *help"

A twisted way to help.

Also, I think Lorgar didn't completely knew what he did to Angron, a little bit like the Mournival when they tried to help Horus.