Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

21 - 40 of 46 Posts

·
Herald of The Warp
Joined
·
2,752 Posts
Probably never gonna happen as the Gay Community and their supporters view the Church as a bunch of ignorant relics. Sadly if they tried to work with them it might help their cause. Pope Francis though may change that, so keep an eye on it Wusword77
One quick thought; Why should they? The church has done nothing but hunt them since forever. They call them sinners, deny them marriage, gave them the blame for AIDS and endless other horrible accusations over the years.

Why would anyone work with people like that and why wouldn't they see them as ignorant relics?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,195 Posts
They shouldn't, the word means multiple things to multiple people in multiple cultures and religions. Due to this, none of them, have sole ownership of a word, end of story. So EH's whole argument comes down to 'they can't use that word because they are gay', which is discrimination. There is no need to work with any of those groups, because it is a word. A word that the government has decided defines the union of two people.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
It's worth noting that there are religious people who are gay, even quite a few who identify as christian. And there are churches who accept them.

It's not gay vs religion. They're not mutually exclusive.
It's gay vs bigot.

It's also worth noting (and nobody ever seems to mention this) that Marriage isn't just for religious people.
There are tons of avowed atheists who get married. Nobody ever says it's trampling on their faith to allow atheists and agnostics and satanists to get married.

It doesn't ruin the sanctity of marriage to have people get married as a tax shelter or to get citizenship, or to get in on some lovely inheritance. People marry for money and power all the time, but as long as they're straight that's fine? Half of all straight marriages end on divorce. The sacred bond and tradition of holy matrimony means pretty much fuck all these days as it is, so why does it matter to you if someone different than you gets to do it?

And as for "Why so much fuss? It's just a piece of paper" it's more than that. From a social/emotional level it's finally being treated as a full human being who has the same rights and feelings as anyone else.

From a legal/financial perspective that piece of paper means a lot. It means sharing your spouse's health insurance. It means significant tax savings by being able to file jointly. It means being legally recognized as a couple. It means being allowed to see your spouse on their deathbed when otherwise you aren't classified as family. It means having legal rights to a child you raised together. It means having legal rights to shared property should things go badly. It means being able to inherit as a spouse should they die.

If all a marriage was was a quaint little religious ceremony and a piece pf paper that carried no legal or social weight then yeah, this would not be a big deal.

But it's so much more than that and that's why finally being given the same rights and protections and status as other human beings is a big deal.

And hey, just imagine the boost this is going to give the economy! marriages are expensive, elaborate affairs. Wedding dresses are scandalously expensive...now you need two of them. Ditto on tuxes. Cakes, photographers, venue rentals, catering, invitations...it may not revitalize the flagging economy but it certainly won't hurt anything.

And if your entire argument against it boils down to grammar, then you're grasping at some pretty laughable straws.
Words change. All the fucking time. New definitions, new traditions, new cultural paradigms happen constantly. There are hundreds of words we use every day that no longer mean what they used to a hundred years ago. Get over it.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Well, you could say "Gay vs people who irrationally hate/discriminate against them despite many of them sharing the same faith and moral values" but it's a bit of a mouthful.

Seriously. Once you factor out religion, which many of them actually share with their detractors, what else is there?

Meanwhile you;re not actually arguing ay of my actual points.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
Probably never gonna happen as the Gay Community and their supporters view the Church as a bunch of ignorant relics. Sadly if they tried to work with them it might help their cause. Pope Francis though may change that, so keep an eye on it Wusword77
That is quite possibly the biggest LOL I have had for quite some time.

Honestly mate? One of the oldest organisations in the human race, that has had at the forefront of it's dogma for centuries the persecution of any who do not follow the doctrine and homosexuals being perhaps the one consistent target of Catholic derision and you have the gall to say "if only they'd work with the Church".

:sarcastichand::rofl:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
I know I will get a lot of hate for this but hey it is who I am :wink:.

I am on the fence about gays and their rights with certain things. On the ground of should they get married and such. I can just say my belief/fears.

I am a Christian roman kind lol. I do not care who they are worth or any of that nonsence to much stuff more important for me to worry about. I just know in our church it is wrong to marry 2 people of the same sex so as long as they do not force churches to marry them I could care less. It always bothered me when they complain/ put up a show like that trying to force a church to marry them it seems more like a act of spite trying to piss them off.

I can't walk into a mosk or how ever you spell it and get married tomorrow and that's a hate crime? of course not because it a religion things. So why do they try and force people to except them? Seems you should lead by example not by forcing that just starts hate.

Do I think they deserve to share health benefits and all the legal stuff with marriage sure why not doesn't bother me any. Doesn't really change anything at all for anyone except the insurance company's.

Now here is my questions and this WILL get me some hate but it is not suppose to just trying to see other points of view on it.

Ok so under all statements I heard "just on cnn/fox and so on" Not really follow it to much so forgive some ignorance. Homosexuals say that it does not hurt anyone and if 2 adults who love each other want to get married they should be allowed.

Now if you start to move the line of who and who can't get married how far will it bend? There is a case of a father and a daughter trying to get married "who are both adults" so if the line is pushed should it be pushed for them too?

This is my BIGGEST concern about marriage with difference types of couples ie. homosexual or polygamist marriages. How do the children develop with out the genetic concept to conceive them "man+woman". I do not even like the concept of getting remarried I think it is a one time thing so this falls into even straight couples btw lol.

If it can be proven with many many years of data backing up how it effects children in a single parent/homosexual/polig house hold. I think a lot of people would not care nearly as much but I was tought marriage was to help protect kids from fathers abandoning them to starve to death which is not the case these days just a tradition.

So in close am I homophob well yes a little but as long as they aren't doing it in public "btw I am against any for of public display of effection no matter the make up" I could not care less. But the more they try and force issues like forcing churches to marry them and for exceptance "which the refuse to do the same for us" the more I become more homophob. So I try and keep a distance from these matters.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,889 Posts
I don't think anyone in the legislature is suggesting that any organisation will be compelled to perform marriages that are against their principles ?

There are far worse situations for children to be in than a loving homosexual one. Many "normal" marriages are far worse environments for children.

"I am on the fence about gays and their rights with certain things." = You're not a homophobe mate and you, just like anyone else are entitled to your beliefs.

That is really what gay marriage is all about, entitlement to beliefs however different they may be to some one else's
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Ogre, I think you're laboring under the misconception that gay marriage being legal means you can force any church to perform one.

Catholic churches don't have to perform Jewish ones, but Jewish weddings are still legal.

If a church doesn't want to marry two gay people THEY DO NOT HAVE TO.

They'll have to get an official from some more accepting group to perform the ceremony, if indeed, they even want a ceremony.

So you can write that one off right there. Nobody's forcing your pastor pr priest to perform a wedding he doesn't want to. All this means is the government doesn't have the right to tell you who you can and cannot love and marry.

You're not even legally obliged to like the concept of gay marriage or believe that gay couples are 'really' married. You;re just not allowed to prevent them from being legally married simply because you don't like it.

As for children...being raised by gay people doesn't turn you gay. You said it yourself, it's a genetic concept. That means nobody has to teach you sex, you just know what your body wants.
A gay couple's child is still a human being with all the same biological and hormonal drives. If they are born gay then so be it, but if they're born straight then having two mommies won't change the fact that little susie is going to want some dick in her teen years.

Think about it: Heterosexual couples have gay kids. Why would gay couples not have heterosexual kids?

Meanwhile, a lot of really, really messed up kids come out of heterosexual marriages.
Should we ban them?
Fathers (and rarely even motners) molest their children from time to time. Does that mean all of them do? Heterosexual parents abuse their children all the time. They give them psychological complexes and generally mess up their lives. This is a fact of life Couple that with divorces being traumatic for children and remarriages often being worse for kids and heterosexual marriages have a proven and documented track record of messing kids up.

Can two people who actually loved eachother enough to remain together despite tremendous social and legal pressure be WORSE parents than a couple who had a kid as teenagers then felt obliged to sign a contract that bonded them for life?

Listen to what you said about marriage keeping fathers from abandoning their children.
How messed up is that family if the only thing keeping the dad from splitting town is because he signed a marriage contract and doesn't want to go through the hassle of a divorce? And that's better?

For the record: Mothers abandon their children as well.
Mine did.
My parents got a divorce because it was what was best for us. It was better for them to be apart than to force us to live with two people who did not love one another. And in mom;s case, who would rather not even be there at all.

Heterosexual marriage is not a magical formula for raising perfect kids.
As I said, if anything it can (but not always does) lead to some seriously messed up kids.
Should we ban heterosexual marriage?

I don't think you're a homophobe or bigot. I think you're misinformed and afraid, and if you want to stay that way you;re entitled to it...but you;re not entitled to keep other human beings from having the same rights as you just because you're misinformed and afraid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,258 Posts
Now if you start to move the line of who and who can't get married how far will it bend? There is a case of a father and a daughter trying to get married "who are both adults" so if the line is pushed should it be pushed for them too?
In some states in the U.S. you can legally marry your first cousin, and in these states also put up the most resistance to LGBT rights. Yay America haha.

If it can be proven with many many years of data backing up how it effects children in a single parent/homosexual/polig house hold. I think a lot of people would not care nearly as much but I was tought marriage was to help protect kids from fathers abandoning them to starve to death which is not the case these days just a tradition.

So in close am I homophob well yes a little but as long as they aren't doing it in public "btw I am against any for of public display of effection no matter the make up" I could not care less. But the more they try and force issues like forcing churches to marry them and for exceptance "which the refuse to do the same for us" the more I become more homophob. So I try and keep a distance from these matters.
There are a lot of studies into this matter, and many scientists say there's no harm, physical or psychological in letting homosexuals raise children.

Children with Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Parents
A link to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry on such material.

I wouldn't worry to much about people hating you, to me it's whatever. As long as you aren't actively trying to undo all the good that's been done in the LGBT community then I think you're fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and I have no right to say it's wrong.

I support LGBT rights just for the sake of equality. I have gay friends (shockingly they're not in short supply at art school haha!) who have been with their partners for a while now and are saddened that they can't marry in our state/country.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
Oh I think you mis-understand me I did not say they WILL mess them up I can just judge by my experience.

I went to school with 3 or so kids "atleast that I know" raised by same sex couples. one of them was almost being forced to belive in what the parents wanted them to believe in and I thought it was just weird. The other two where tormented to almost tears daily... it was bothering. Now for those two, the punishment was for something out of their control "like being poor". I do not think all gay couples WILL rune kids lives, just a little worried about the kids. The parents choose what happens to them and the stigma that occurs, wrong or not the child has no choice or say on the matter.

So on the grounds of if they can get married and such I do not really mind if you want to share your paid insurance with a love one or any other benefits that come with marriage. Just here in Canada a lesbian couple was trying to force a roman catholic church to marry them.. bothered me greatly.

BTW I know a lot of kids where messed up by hetro couples and that bugs me lol. If it was up to me you would be not able to have kids til you live with someone for 5 + years. That's the ground to adopt a kid but popping one in or out requires nothing lol.

But marriage "in my teachings" was in acted to keep the men from leaving them to starve, disgusting yes but good that they are forced to man up.

So no I do not think they WILL mess up a kid or damage them just hate change and because the first one's "the ones who don't get to choose" will be tortured because of something they didn't decide. Right or wrong we all went to highschool and we know it happens. Like the poor mix race kids... omg it is like baiting a dog with a bone. Kids tear them apart.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,116 Posts
I went to school with 3 or so kids "atleast that I know" raised by same sex couples. one of them was almost being forced to belive in what the parents wanted them to believe in and I thought it was just weird.
That's called parenting, I'd say with some confidence that your parents wanted you to believe what they believed too. Its got nothing to do with being gay, straight or anything else, its called wanting what you see as the best for your child, no matter how misguided that may be.

Like the poor mix race kids... omg it is like baiting a dog with a bone. Kids tear them apart.
That's just, I don't even....

What the fuck are you trying to say here?
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
I'm just going to leave that whole statement alone.
Particularly the last bit.
I think it speaks pretty loudly for itself.

Just...wow.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
So, just to clarify...we shouldn't let gay people get married and have kids...because the kids will get picked on...like mixed race kids?
So, we probably shouldn't have mixed race marriages either so their kids won't be picked on?
In essence, it's better that children of gay couples, and mixed race kids are just never born at all so that they can't be...picked on?

And speaking of tortured for something they didn't decode...what about all the people who didn't decide to be gay (because that's not a choice you get to make) but get discriminated against by "concerned christians" because they still want to marry someone they love?

And hating change works out just fine so long as you;re not the one being discriminated against, bullied or oppressed...but you really can;t begrudge change when it;s people wanting a change from being treated like shit. You may not like change, but the person who wasn;t allowed to marry whomever he loves is going to be less than sympathetic about your distaste for things changing.

So, yeah..I guess if you can't figure out what was wrong with everything you just said, there's not much point in continuing.
 

·
Executive Nitpicker
Joined
·
8,276 Posts
Let me just counter that with this

Sex-changing Treatment For Kids: It's On The Rise

This isn't an isolated thing, and it has nothing to do with gay parents.
It's called Gender Identity Disorder and it may have biological/neurochemical causes. They're identifying it earlier than before.

It's also worth nothing that the treatment that child in the story you linked is undergoing isn't gender reassignment, it's to delay the onset of puberty. Why?

TO GIVE HIM TIME TO DECIDE IF IT'S WHAT HE WANTS TO DO!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Sex/story?id=4901803&page=1#.UdD6ZG2Nvk0

They're not giving a little boy a sex change.
Nobody is giving prepubescent children elective sex changes.
They're delaying the onset of puberty so that he has time to grow up a little and decide if that's really what he wants, and to make the transition easier when and if it does happen.
And frankly, no matter how you feel about this particular condition, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Transgender kids are born to straight parents as well.
This could literally be anyone's kid, and the majority of the kids getting this treatment were born to straight parents.

Anyone who thinks homosexuals should be barred from being married or having kids because they're suddenly going to start giving them sex changes for fun needs to take a step back and think about how insanely stupid that is. For a start, most homosexual couples adopt...for obvious reasons. If they want a little girl they can get one. Besides that, homosexuals aren;t inhuman monsters who want to alter living beings for fun. They're not cartoon supervillians. They're people.
 

·
Herald of The Warp
Joined
·
2,752 Posts
Same sex couples should absolutely not be allowed kids.

The California boy, 11, who is undergoing hormone blocking treatment | Mail Online

Let me drop this disgusting story here. Made me want to go postal on these two freaks.
Please don't judge every same-sex couple based on one lunatic case. If we were to do the same all around, then the following would be true:

- Straight couples shouldn't have kids, as they teach them to hate anything that isn't according to modern society norms.
- People in trailerparks shouldn't have kids, as they lie, steal and make moonshine at the age of 5.
- People who play Warhammer shouldn't have kids, as the kids will most likely choke on small parts.
- Religious people shouldn't have kids, as they brainwash them, denying them free will.

Etc. etc. You see where I'm coming from?

(Note: The above is meant in humor, not in spite. They do not reflect my general views on either of the groups in question. If you take it seriously, you are stupid.)
 

·
Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
Joined
·
8,082 Posts
It just seems Jacobite has an issue with the "marriage" terminology. But hey, whateva right :whistle:
Yes I do have issue with the Religious right claiming ownership of something that isn't theres

Really, I believe that in the Ten Commandements #9 states, "You shall not covet your neighbors wife." Perhaps Genesis, ""Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh" (Genisis 2:24)." Now I will admit scscofield that what else the Bible says in the way of defining marriage is a repeat of the above, and actually goes on to some of the more gruesome aspects of marriage. Least to say no Religion is without it's ugly side.
Marriage predates the Christian Bible. So... what's your Holy book got to do with a homosexual couples marriage? or an Atheists for that matter? I don't come in and start telling you how to conduct your marriage so why should you have a right to tell me how to conduct mine?

However if you want to claim that marriage is the creation the Bible or a solely Christian institution, word etc (and I dispute that) then you better start advocating all the Bibles laws involving it. Otherwise you are yourself one of your favorite terms for me: a "hypocrite"


In short yes it defines marriage as being a union consummated physically, signed legally, and joined through a religious rite between a man and a women. now, while this is my personal belief.
That's your personal opinion and has zero bearing on the legal framework of marriage.

Yes but lets be honest Jacobite you directed towards this country. But thats besides the point now.
I am being honest. NZ just went through the same debate and ruled that homosexual couples can be legally married the same as straight people. The UK appears to be doing the same, France I believe also just passed measures to the same end. Believe it or not the world does not revolve around the USA.

:shok::shok::shok: then if what you just said is true then why are we bloody arguing about a suggestion I made regarding the title of marriage. Holy crap dude, hypocrisy out it's #$$.
Because when the Religious right gets offended they tend to do anything i their powert to pass laws to limit the freedoms of people they don't agree with. Prop 8 anybody? Using their faith as a basis they change laws in a state they separates church and state. You want faith to be the basis of government... move to Iran. How does this legislation remove your right to marry? How does it take anything away from you?


:Us, the Human race, Homo-Sapiens, Humanity, us fleshy bipedal creatures.
And are homosexuals not those things? I can assure you every single homosexual I have ever meet has been a "the Human race, Homo-Sapiens, Humanity, us fleshy bipedal creatures".

:shok: Ok, that was just dumb. Seriously if thats all you got go home, this just weakens your arguement.
No. You said "before being homosexual was officially recognised". I am asking a question as I do not know what you are talking about. That is not weakening my argument that is asking you for clarification on a point you raised. You said "before being homosexual was officially recognised" I would like you to tell me when that was as I don't know. To continue that train of logic that you started I also want to know when "being hetro sexual was officially recognised". Indulge me, enlighten me.

Wuptido, let me give you a cookie. Sheesh :read:
You are the one who first make out that the ability to use google is something to be proud off, not me.

It doesnt until they walk over and then call be stupid and "missing out" for being hetero. But honestly that not a big concern seeing as a couple of my freinds are gay and a good bud from the Army is also gay. It does get annoying after awhile.
And are they doing that because they are gay or simply a dickhead? I have never had a gay person (and I went to Uni and work with a lot of them) come up to me and seriously try and convince me that I am missing out. I have however had many people of many Faiths rudely sit me down and try and convert me or tell me my way of thinking is wrong based on their book, and that gets more than annoying after a while. Door knocking religous converters and mail drops are an invasion of privacy. Having religious classes in primary schools in a secular society is an disgrace and potentially breaks several laws.

Also homosexual private citizens saying you are "missing out" doesn't in anyway take away any rights you have just in the same way a straight married person telling a single person that they are "missing out" doesn't.

Do you have an actual real and valid reason as to how your legal rights are removed by this?

Yes, I do. Being a practicing Catholic (who actually practices, get it :laugh: ) I see the inner workings of the Church weekly. I honestly feel they would relax because they are tired of fighting over it and have more pressing issues to deal with. Like the sick fuck priests giving us a bad name, or the poor choice of Popes by the European Cardinals (ancient dudes), or the lack of funds to keep Churches open. So yes, I do
Then you really need to look harder at your Church because you are out of touch with it's stance:

http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/

"The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships"

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

And your point? Once again let me repost for you what I stated earlier....
My point is that you said we were "rushing" this. I disagree.

Btw, corrected your really bad grammer there. :wink:
Congrats... your point being?

Probably never gonna happen as the Gay Community and their supporters view the Church as a bunch of ignorant relics. Sadly if they tried to work with them it might help their cause. Pope Francis though may change that, so keep an eye on it Wusword77
2000 years of persecution is going to do that. When the hell has the Catholic Church ever worked on equal terms with any group they disagree with? When they were burning them at the stake? When the Inquisition was torturing them to do death? When they were calling Holy Crusades on them? When they were sheltering Pedophiles and moving them round the globe?

They state they fundamentally disagree with homosexuality on a moral level. What makes you think they are willing to "work" with homosexual rights activist? The only "work" they are willing to do is the bullshit none science of turning them straight. Which does more harm than good by the way.

Hell yeah, if only certain people here recognized that. :)
So you'll be telling the legal challenges to the ruling to drop it then?

Jacobite you keep repeating the same arguments here and skipping over the main points to beat down the side wording. If your really going to make an argument that makes sense other than "It's impeding Progress and slowing down the Culture Wars," then I suggest you take them back to NZ with you. IDK how things are in NZ and honestly I don't give a flying donkeys #$$ about it. However in America we have two sides to each equation, and people here at least give a damn about keeping common sense while moving forward. So please states your point in a clear and concise manner; otherwise your just being hypocritical.
No I don't. I've just replied to every point you have made, how much more clear and concise do you want?. Please tell me which ones I have missed. My argument is not based on "It's impeding Progress and slowing down the Culture Wars," it is based on the concept of your own personal religious beliefs and of your chosen church have no place dictating who can marry whom as the institution of marriage predates your church and as the states which both and I live in have separation of Church and State they don't have a right either. Somehow I'm not surprised you don't give a toss about any country other than your own, par with course with what I have come to know about you. We have many sides to the argument in NZ, many different viewpoints and I'm sure there are in America as well, you may see the world in black and white but other people don't. And no common sense is not the word I would use to describe the politics of any nation but especially not the US.


You use way to many smiley faces dude.
Yes he does and it's been commented on many times but he doesn't get the message.


It's also worth noting (and nobody ever seems to mention this) that Marriage isn't just for religious people.

There are tons of avowed atheists who get married. Nobody ever says it's trampling on their faith to allow atheists and agnostics and satanists to get married.
A very good point, I tried to bring it up in post #16 but evidently didn't make it clear enough. My apologies.

It doesn't ruin the sanctity of marriage to have people get married as a tax shelter or to get citizenship, or to get in on some lovely inheritance. People marry for money and power all the time, but as long as they're straight that's fine? Half of all straight marriages end on divorce. The sacred bond and tradition of holy matrimony means pretty much fuck all these days as it is, so why does it matter to you if someone different than you gets to do it?
As people have been doing for thousands of years. A polgymous marriage (when that was legal/still is in some parts of the world) would have been/is very different to what the traditional Christian Marriage is. Hell a marriage where one of the two partners isn't a virgin isn't a "traditional" Christian marriage.



And if your entire argument against it boils down to grammar, then you're grasping at some pretty laughable straws.

Words change. All the fucking time. New definitions, new traditions, new cultural paradigms happen constantly. There are hundreds of words we use every day that no longer mean what they used to a hundred years ago. Get over it.
Agreed 100%
 
21 - 40 of 46 Posts
Top