Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 106 Posts

·
Well That Was Unexpected
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone, I was reading through a few of the older and some of the newer boards and I'm finding alot of hate for the Emperor's Children and more specifically their Primarch Fulgrim (especially it seems, regarding his portrayal in the HH book of the same name). So I decided to start a discussion about all the different aspects of the Emperor's Children Legion, its characters and its fluff (especially post-heresy). There may be spoilers throughout these posts so be careful!

I also noticed that the Chaos God Slaanesh is either disliked entirely or is represented merely as 'The Porn God' which is a little sad as it ruins all the intricacies of that particular Diety, much in the same way Khorne is ruined by his portaryal as a mindless killer whose followers charge tanks and fortifications with their bare hands.

But for me the Emperor's Children are by far the best legion, I have a natural sympathy with them as I adore their prideful arrogance (hey like me!) I also actually think Slaanesh is the most interesting of all the Chaos Gods. Finally the legion is home to my favourite HH charcter Lucius the Eternal.

*Spoiler for the Book Fulgrim Ahead*

Firstly, what is it with all the hating on the HH book Fulgrim? I actually think it is one of the top books in the whole series (although I would argue that it should have been slightly more adult orientated due to the Slaanesh theme). The biggest grievence people seem to have is with the portrayal of Fulgrim and specifically his fall, my only question is why? I think his fall is handled superbly, what I think everyone seems to believe is that Fulgrim merely picked up a sword and it corrupted him, when in actual fact the Daemon within the sword merely played upon his already existing flaws and weaknesses. The book also has some great moments i.e. the battle with the Eldar, the general represntation of the Legion and its characters, and of course the interaction between Fulgrim and Horus after he becomes possessed (why does no-one ever talk about this important moment, as Horus basically promises to free his brother Primarch if he can, adding a further dimension to his already excellent character?).

I was reading this book a little last night and I think those scenes between the Daemon possessed Fulgrim and Horus are amazing. I really enjoy the mannerisms and style of the post-possession Fulgrim and is anyone else besides me anxious to see the giant snake-like, four armed Fulgrim taking on Gulliman?

Anyway, I have plenty more to talk about regarding both the Legion and Slaanesh but i'll wait a while and see the kinds of responses this topic gets.

So what are your thoughts on All Things Emperor's Children?
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
I also noticed that the Chaos God Slaanesh is either disliked entirely or is represented merely as 'The Porn God' which is a little sad as it ruins all the intricacies of that particular Diety
That particular stereotypical portrayal of Slaanesh is what grieves me the most. I think more often than not its said in jest (although its by no means amusing), but it has been such a prominent (false) stereotype that it seems to be believed by many.

much in the same way Khorne is ruined by his portaryal as a mindless killer whose followers charge tanks and fortifications with their bare hands.
Although I think that that portrayal of Khorne is much more justified considering it has basis in the background.

Firstly, what is it with all the hating on the HH book Fulgrim? I actually think it is one of the top books in the whole series (although I would argue that it should have been slightly more adult orientated due to the Slaanesh theme).
I don't think its as bad as some people seem to suggest. Its by no means my favourite Heresy novel, but its not near the bottom of my list either.

The biggest grievence people seem to have is with the portrayal of Fulgrim and specifically his fall, my only question is why? I think his fall is handled superbly, what I think everyone seems to believe is that Fulgrim merely picked up a sword and it corrupted him, when in actual fact the Daemon within the sword merely played upon his already existing flaws and weaknesses.
People also seem to draw a similar comparison to Horus' downfall covered in the opening trilogy. Considering the authors had three novels to show Horus' downfall I thought it could have been handled better. The reasons were there, but they weren't emphasised or elaborated enough upon in my opinion.

I tend to think the same occured with Fulgrim in Fulgrim (I also think a more elaborate title was needed). His corruption was justified, and enough reasons were given. But I just think they weren't emphasised to the level which people seemed to have wanted.

So what are your thoughts on All Things Emperor's Children?
As for the Emperor's Children in general, they are one of my favourite Astartes Legions as well (Slaanesh also being the most interesting and varied warp god in my opinion as well). Their ideals and perfection was what earned them the right to be the only Astartes Legion to bear the Emperor's Aquila, yet it was the very same ideals that were twisted and perverted to enable at first their distancing from the Emperor, and ultimately their fall to Chaos.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
Debating... Fulgrim might be my favorite Heresy novel. Most people actually consider it one of their favorites. So I'm actually surprised at the hate out there. It could possibly be that all the awesome character died out in Istaavan and that Lucius was a traitor that people dislike the legion. Some also disrespect fulgrim for being the only primarch who got possessed.
 

·
Well That Was Unexpected
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hey everyone some great comments so far, and I'm glad you agree with some of my thoughts on the EC Child-Of-The-Emperor. I understand that people say 'porn for the porn God' as a kind of acknowledgement of their favour but it is indeed very stupid, repetitive and simple minded, (See we are supposed to be prideful and arrogant aswell :) )

Ckcrawford, you actually reminded me about one of my favourite moments involving Lucius when he calls one of his brother marines for aid in repelling an enemy assault, only for that Marine (was it Demeter?) to find out that he had attacked loyal troops and that Lucius was in fact a traitor. Also he was involved in two of the best duels in the entire series, firstly his tragic and excellent fight against his friend Saul and who can forget the infamous incident with Loken in the sparring cages. What is everyone's opinion of the 'Scion of Chemos', the 'Soulthief', the 'Eternal', Lucius? :) He is my favourite character, I just wish there was a colour artwork of him :( .

Also I'm curious if anyone can explain to me why the incident with Kharn the Betrayer fractured the EC ? it seems that it should only really of caused problems for the World Eaters.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
Well the fight with the World Eaters in Battle of Skalathrax was one of many feuds that the Emperor's Children had within the Eye of Terror with other legions. The Emperor's Children basically just fucked with too many enemies and were fought until their armies were broken. Their primarch isn't actually Fulgrim anymore either, so he doesn't give a shit that his legion is all over the place. I believe they even picked fights with the Black Legion when attempting to make clones of Horus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
142 Posts
nothing wrong with the Emperor's Children...see my avatar :so_happy:

I also find FULGRIM one of the better HH-books...he's a kick-ass primarch, killing an Avatar of the bloody handy god like that and his never-ending quest for perfection...is something I can identify with, hehehe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,172 Posts
i must admit that until i actually read Fulgrim i didn't really think that much of him but after reading it (about 8 times now) i love the guy and yeah slaanesh is the godof sex and drugs and rock and roll but that said imho there sre so many things in life that could be attributed to his worship, every walk of life that of all the dark gods he is the more interesting one, and the one more likely to worm his/her way in
 

·
Well That Was Unexpected
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Wow, I was hoping there would be more EC, Slaanesh and Fulgrim fans out there.

Anyway, I was just curious about how you think the EC are post-heresy. I mean what does Lucius and his Warband actually do? How do the EC recruit? Where the heck is that pleasure planet of the Daemon Fulgrim and what is it like i.e. how Mortarions is a repeat of the planet he was discovered on?

Finally do you think the EC still care about defeating the imperium and casting the Corpse God off of his Golden Throne? I think there must be some EC commanders who would think that would be the ultimate sensation/ experience and therefore would work towards that goal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,172 Posts
never pick a fight with lucius cos if you take the slightrst satisfaction in his death or pleasure at the thought that you killed him youchange into him and your soul is trapped in his armour for all eternity the screams of the tormented giving off a powerful blast...personally i'd avoid that one if i were you as for the first captain and third captain i haveno idea
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
644 Posts
Wow, I was hoping there would be more EC, Slaanesh and Fulgrim fans out there.

Anyway, I was just curious about how you think the EC are post-heresy. I mean what does Lucius and his Warband actually do? How do the EC recruit? Where the heck is that pleasure planet of the Daemon Fulgrim and what is it like i.e. how Mortarions is a repeat of the planet he was discovered on?

Finally do you think the EC still care about defeating the imperium and casting the Corpse God off of his Golden Throne? I think there must be some EC commanders who would think that would be the ultimate sensation/ experience and therefore would work towards that goal.
I just wanted to take a moment and gratify Fulgrim as this is what caused my final placement in building and painting my Emperor's Children. I felt really bad for Fulgrim at the end after he struck down Ferrus Manus and realized the gravity at what he did. I also enjoyed the final battle scene on Isstvan V, seeing how far Julius and Marius had finally fallen.

I imagine that the EC pick recruits from renegades who fall prey to Slaanesh, as well as Slaanesh cults that exist within the Imperium. As for Lucius' Warband, I am sure they raid the Imperium for the thrill of battle, and not for any particular goal as per say the Black Legion would.

Moving on to Fulgrim's pleasure planet, wasn't there a theory that Gulliman actually killed Fulgrim in battle, and the anathema was the sort of the daemon's last licks?

I have a feeling that the EC still hate the Emperor as much as any other of the Traitor Legions do, but probably make it a backseat goal compared to fueling their own lust for battle.
 

·
Well That Was Unexpected
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I actually finished re-reading Fulgrim a few days ago and I find it easy to see why people not particularly find him appealing. I actually happen to find myself returning again and again to the pages involving the Daemonically possesed Fulgrim, his conversation with Horus, his giving of the Laer sword to Lucius, etc.

Then again though, when you think about it, few of the other Primarch's are anything to brag about, Lion is an idiot, Angron and Russ are boring and one dimesional, even Sanguinus is a too good to be true kind of guy.

Fulgrim on the other hand is the only Primarch who puts any significant thought into what he and his Astartes will do after the galaxy is conquered.

Also if Gullieman actually killed Fulgrim that would be the gayest thing ever (and thats coming from someone whose Warband uses the colour pink!). But I don't think that that is in fact the case. I think the Daemon possessed Fulgrim now resides on a Daemon World in the Eye of Terror.

As for continuing to seek the destruction of the imperium, what I was suggesting is that, I think its correct to assume that they are all now decadent and self indulgent to the point of extreme. But ..... what could be more thrilling than casting the Corpse from his throne on Holy Terra? Surely that would be a truly transcendant experience that many EC Lords strive for.

A few things I stories I would love to see / am looking forward to seeing told in the BL are, the actions of the EC on Terra when they massacre the undefended populace, the battle between Gullieman and Fulgrim, the Cloning of Horus incident (I'm using that as part of the fluff for my Warband's Lord) and finally something new that adds to our tiny amout of knowledge about both the Legion and their patron diety Slaanesh.
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
Fulgrim on the other hand is the only Primarch who puts any significant thought into what he and his Astartes will do after the galaxy is conquered.
I don't think thats the case at all. Horus is one who certainly comtemplated the future of the Legio Astartes and the Primarchs, Alpharius another. If I remember correctly even Dorn noted that the Great Crusade would never truly end, that the wars would last indefinitely - proving that he put significant thought into the issue. In fact I think most of the Primarchs would have had their thoughts focussed on such things towards the end of the Great Crusade.

Also if Gullieman actually killed Fulgrim that would be the gayest thing ever
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Guilliman slain Fulgrim. In fact after Fulgrim slits Guilliman's throat the Emperor's Children mysteriously disappear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,172 Posts
slannesh doesnt want his/her children of lust and all things depraved getting killed gee he/she really does love his/her followers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,475 Posts
I think I can answere a few questions on EC.

For one the Breaking of EC into Warbands is thanks to Abbaddon, not Kharn. When Kharn did his shindig is what cause the WEs to crack. Its when Fabious Bile tried to clone Horus and had the EC steal his body is what caused EC to break.

As for recruits I know Fabious Bile still has the Knowledge to work for EC and any other Legion looking for those improvements, but mostly I know Chapters like the Violaters in the novel Daemon World and in Soul Haunter are a whole Chapter that worships Slannesh. They exist in the EoTduring the 13th Black Crusade and in Soul Haunter they provided a Strike Cruiser I think to help the Despoiler. In Daemon World 4 companies led by a Dread provided the ultimate protection for the Slannesh Queen. Then there splits from the EC Warband like the Angels of Ecstasy that are VERY EC like but clearly apart as well.

The only thing for the EC love is to add some of the most Important events/characters in the HH/Post HH involve EC.

EC was the smallest starting Legion at 200 SMs. Then they become some of the most successful after that.
So awsome was the EC at the art of war they received the Emperors personal Emblem.
The warning from Eldrad of Ulthwe was reacieved by EC, they knew before most what was going to happen, even if they did not listen.
Saul Tarvitz was responsible for the resistance after the Isstvan III masacre went down. He was also well respected by the Luna Wolves after Murder.
Lucius is one of the best swordsman in the Legions. He is also important in the hold out on Isstvan III with Saul and important with what happen on Murder. After the Heresy he is one of the top 5 baddest CSMs around.
Fabious Bile is reason the NMs exist. He is the reason Black Legion formed under Abbaddon and his Legion broke. He has to some extent uncover the Emperors secrets in genetic enginering.
Fulgrim is responsible for Ferrus Manus death in single combat. He is also responsible as to why Guilliman is no longer leading the (overated) Ultras no more.
The EC battling the WEs is what led to Kharn breaking his Legion. The EC stealing Horus Body is why Abbaddon took charge and rename the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion.

The EC are behind many Key Plots to the 40k fluff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,277 Posts
My though on EC is that the current noise marines look like the furthest thing from a Slaanesh dedicated marine. Big bulky awkward looking? yeah that screams Slaanesh to me...... Also I never got why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it, still I guess its a lot easier then redesigning slightly slimmer more agile looking marines/possessed ect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
679 Posts
why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it
the bug look? Giant, multifaceted, lidless eyes serve the purpose of maximizing the visual stimulation they receive...

After assembling 24 noise marines with sonic blasters I have to say that I agree, they are quite bulky for what you would consider... They also don't fit together at all!

Now the problems I've heard people have with Fulgrim is that Fabius Bile is creating noise marines (Eidolon) well before the heresy is underway. That was a change that didn't sit well with many
 

·
Well That Was Unexpected
Joined
·
1,646 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
I think I can answere a few questions on EC.

For one the Breaking of EC into Warbands is thanks to Abaddon, not Kharn. When Kharn did his shindig is what cause the WEs to crack. Its when Fabious Bile tried to clone Horus and had the EC steal his body is what caused EC to break.

The only thing for the EC love is to add some of the most Important events/characters in the HH/Post HH involve EC.

EC was the smallest starting Legion at 200 SMs. Then they become some of the most successful after that.
So awsome was the EC at the art of war they received the Emperors personal Emblem.
The warning from Eldrad of Ulthwe was reacieved by EC, they knew before most what was going to happen, even if they did not listen.
Saul Tarvitz was responsible for the resistance after the Isstvan III masacre went down. He was also well respected by the Luna Wolves after Murder.
Lucius is one of the best swordsman in the Legions. He is also important in the hold out on Isstvan III with Saul and important with what happen on Murder. After the Heresy he is one of the top 5 baddest CSMs around.
Fabious Bile is reason the NMs exist. He is the reason Black Legion formed under Abbaddon and his Legion broke. He has to some extent uncover the Emperors secrets in genetic enginering.
Fulgrim is responsible for Ferrus Manus death in single combat. He is also responsible as to why Guilliman is no longer leading the (overated) Ultras no more.
The EC battling the WEs is what led to Kharn breaking his Legion. The EC stealing Horus Body is why Abbaddon took charge and rename the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion.

The EC are behind many Key Plots to the 40k fluff.
I think you'v made some excellent and valid points here. It's easy I think, to forget just how pivitol the EC were in many of the key events of 40k history. The ones I'm most anxious to see written, are (1) More about the Daemonically Possessed Fulgrim, especially fighting Papa Smurf (2) The 'Clone Wars' between the EC and the Sons of Horus, what was the EC rationale behind stealing Horus? (3) Just a bit more post-heresy stuff, just to make them seem a bit more relevant

My though on EC is that the current noise marines look like the furthest thing from a Slaanesh dedicated marine. Big bulky awkward looking? yeah that screams Slaanesh to me...... Also I never got why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it, still I guess its a lot easier then redesigning slightly slimmer more agile looking marines/possessed ect.
Well don't forget Slaanesh is working with what he is given. If an Astartes is corrupted, he is still an Astartes (albiet with a few modifications). Also the bug look is a little hard to understand at times, but in one of those wierd ways, it just kind of works IMO.

the bug look? Giant, multifaceted, lidless eyes serve the purpose of maximizing the visual stimulation they receive...

After assembling 24 noise marines with sonic blasters I have to say that I agree, they are quite bulky for what you would consider... They also don't fit together at all!

Now the problems I've heard people have with Fulgrim is that Fabius Bile is creating noise marines (Eidolon) well before the heresy is underway. That was a change that didn't sit well with many
Nothing wrong with heresy era Noise Marines that I can see? The only fluff conflict is that they are supposed to be the pinnicle of decadence for Slaanesh Marine followers. And as you say they were around a bit too early for that to be the case. Also excellent explanation of the bug aspect of Slaanesh. Slaanesh can gift followers with extra sensory limbs, attachments etc or can have them secrete a musk that brings the mightiest warriors to their knees in rapturous joy and pain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,277 Posts
Still think the current Noise marine models are a little unslaaneshy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
I actually liked the book and found Fulgrim to be a very dramatic character I greatly appreciated their quest for perfection. That being said I do not like the current EC form, makes me think of the eighties, guitars pink and stuff, it does not really fit in for me,
 
1 - 20 of 106 Posts
Top