[Ardias26]

Considering that the word bearers were zealous beleivers in the emperors divinity before they converted to chaos. It would seem a likely twist of irony if it was then that laid the foundations of what would later become the imperial faith. Worlds they conquered had cathedrals raised to worship the emperor and basically became the first cardinal worlds so to speak. It wouldnt surprise me if opheilia was a world bought into compliance by pre heresy word bearers too. Imagine there being great temples and churches still standing in 40k that the Word bearers had actually built before their fall. Ones that maybe even Sororitas worship in....lool.

 

[ckcrawford]

I think that its actually quite ironic that eventually Guilliman, Logar's competition eventually makes himself warmaster after the Heresy and eventually the entire Imperium becomes just as Zealous if not more than Logar and his Word Bearers.

 

[Baron Spikey]

The fact that 2 Brothers who never saw eye to eye, and were in fact polar opposites, produced the two tomes that have made the Imperium the way it is (the Codex Astartes and Lectitio Divinitatus), is something I find grimly amusing.

 

[Angel of Blood]

Not reeeealy ironic in the truest sense of the word But yeah, i imagine its almost certain that some of the Word Bearers compliant worlds today are some of the biggest bastions of Imperial Faith. Lorgar did after all write the Lectio Divinatus which is the very base of the Imperial Faith.

 

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

I'm not sure the zealous-ness of the Imperium's religion has much to do with Guilliman's actions in the aftermath of the Heresy. Unless I've misunderstood what you were getting at, ck. (Which I think I have.)
The current, Ecclesiarchy-led, religion of the every-day Imperial citizen is, to my mind, rather different to that espoused by the loyal Lorgar. When he was still loyal to his father, I would imagine his faith being a lot purer, burning hotter and cleaner. There would be no room for interpretation because Lorgar would have distilled it down to its purest essence, really getting to the philosophical heart of what it meant to worship the Emperor as a god.
When he turns traitor, it wouldn't surprise me if his later work, the Book of Lorgar, is less than the Divinitatus. This is because he is now looking at the Emperor as an enemy and defining himself moreso by what he is in opposition to, as well as what he is now actually fighting for. This wouldn't render such a pure philosphical footing becuase whenever we define ourselve by what we aren't, we lose sight of what we are, and our vision and identity suffer because of this. So, in a way, whilst all Imperial religion might lead to Lorgar, his new-found opposition to the Emperor will have defined his new views, meaning that a lot of mortal chaos-worship actually leads back to the Emperor's divinity.
Did any of that make sense? Hmmm.

GFP

 

[Helsreach]

No Giant Fossil Penguin, none at all...

Seriously though I can understand what you mean by that but the only Chaos legions to use the Book of Lorgar are the Word Bearers. All the other legions have their own views of why they fight against the Imperium, Justice, revenge, because its right, to destroy chaos, as worship etc so Lorgars philosophies would have little impact on those legions.

However, it is a widely held belief that the Emperor would have abandoned his sons on the road to God Hood, an idea Lorgar founded. The word Bearers however base their religious beliefs on how to worship Chaos and their hatred of the Imperium is more personal than religous

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

Of my understanding, the Book of Lorgar isn't so much ignored by the other legions as it is jealously guarded by the Word Bearers. They preach to the choir, because it works, but they do little to proselytize to the masses of Black Legion, Night Lords, World Eaters or Death Guard... for examples. Though, I'm sure that's also because the World Eaters have their own idea of what it is to pray to Khorne ("Hack and chop, gut and drink and we take a few heads as well, that's how we say our prayer to Khorne before running back into Hell!" ~to the tune of the Merry Ole Land of Oz), as do the rest of the traitor legions.

I find it interesting the title of this says "All roads lead to Lorgar"... I had assumed there would be some detailed explanation of how the Imperium will turn to worship Chaos Undecided like Lorgar. Instead, I find an argument about how despite being a polar opposite to Lorgar, Guilliman supposedly ended up doing the same thing Lorgar did. To this, I must protest.

Lorgar worshipped the Emperor as a God. He encouraged his entire legion to worship the Emperor as an immortal and beneficent god of all Mankind, and that the space marines were his vassals and stewards of the flock.

Roboute Guilliman has done no such thing. In fact, the Codex Astartes, in its many teachings speaks of the Emperor as a father figure to the Primarchs, who in turn are the fathers of their legions. Many of the chapters who have adapted the Codex Astartes have taken a secular view of the Emperor, with more of an ancestral veneration in their practices than any form of religious worship.

Roboute himself never believed the Emperor was a god (and I think the other loyalist primarchs held this view too), so, in essence, he never did follow the road to Lorgar.

 

[ckcrawford]

I'm not sure the zealous-ness of the Imperium's religion has much to do with Guilliman's actions in the aftermath of the Heresy. Unless I've misunderstood what you were getting at, ck. (Which I think I have.)
The current, Ecclesiarchy-led, religion of the every-day Imperial citizen is, to my mind, rather different to that espoused by the loyal Lorgar. When he was still loyal to his father, I would imagine his faith being a lot purer, burning hotter and cleaner. There would be no room for interpretation because Lorgar would have distilled it down to its purest essence, really getting to the philosophical heart of what it meant to worship the Emperor as a god.
When he turns traitor, it wouldn't surprise me if his later work, the Book of Lorgar, is less than the Divinitatus. This is because he is now looking at the Emperor as an enemy and defining himself moreso by what he is in opposition to, as well as what he is now actually fighting for. This wouldn't render such a pure philosphical footing becuase whenever we define ourselve by what we aren't, we lose sight of what we are, and our vision and identity suffer because of this. So, in a way, whilst all Imperial religion might lead to Lorgar, his new-found opposition to the Emperor will have defined his new views, meaning that a lot of mortal chaos-worship actually leads back to the Emperor's divinity.
Did any of that make sense? Hmmm.

GFP

I was talking about the Irony you Giant Fossil Penguin. :grin:. Logar was daemonized for being so Zealous. And guilliman being polar opposite wasn't able to stop the Zealness of the Imperium and the worshiping of the god emperor.

 

[Baron Spikey]

Lorgar worshipped the Emperor as a God. He encouraged his entire legion to worship the Emperor as an immortal and beneficent god of all Mankind, and that the space marines were his vassals and stewards of the flock.

Roboute Guilliman has done no such thing. In fact, the Codex Astartes, in its many teachings speaks of the Emperor as a father figure to the Primarchs, who in turn are the fathers of their legions. Many of the chapters who have adapted the Codex Astartes have taken a secular view of the Emperor, with more of an ancestral veneration in their practices than any form of religious worship.

Roboute himself never believed the Emperor was a god (and I think the other loyalist primarchs held this view too), so, in essence, he never did follow the road to Lorgar.

The point isn't that Guilliman was religious or encouraged religion in any way, it's that his book was as influential as Lorgar's. The Codex Astartes didn't just re-organise the Astartes, despite the name it also restructured every facet of the Imperium's military.

 

[Ardias26]

The point i was trying to make was that many of the cardinal worlds of 40k imperium, like ophielia. May well have likely been worlds bought into 'compliance' by the loyal word bearers. After the heresy the infrastructure that the word bearers themselves laid down beforde theyre fall would end up being used to further the imperial religion. The fact that they were built by a traitor legion being forgotten over the millenia. Taking into account that he wrote the lectito divinatus, as well as turned many worlds he conquered into massive shrines. It would seem resonable to assume that the imperial faith of 40k would not be where it is by that time without lorgars pre heresy efforts. Therin is the irony.

 

[Boc]

I'm just curious as to how the Primarchs that have vanished/been waiting in stasis (optimistically... let's say they're alive) would react to the present day Imperium, knowing full well of their father's lack of divinity.

Not to mention that many Legionnaires would doubtlessly be outraged at seeing the present, theocratic Imperium.

 

[randian]

However, it is a widely held belief that the Emperor would have abandoned his sons on the road to God Hood, an idea Lorgar founded.

A belief for which there was zero evidence, only insinuations by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The Emperor was moving to a civilian administration? So what? Wasn't Perturabo's big beef that his Legion was stuck garrisoning planets and essentially acting as planetary administrators? Why then complain about the new civilian administrators that are going to free up your Legion's time for more alien killing?

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

knowing full well of their father's lack of divinity.

Assuming the Emperor wasn't divine all along. After all what defines divinity? Just because the Emperor denied it doesn't make it so, after all I believe it was Lorgar who said, 'Only the truly divine deny their divinity'.

 

[Warlock in Training]

The fact the Emperor is praticaly dead, his Imperium in shambles, Cabal predicted his arrogance and failure, the fact that Eldrad could forsee the Heresy and Big E couldnt, his inability to keep the Legions in line, ect.

I dont know when comapred to the four Chaos Gods who have complete controle over their minnions, forsight, Immortality, and the win/win record over the Emperor... I call that Divine.

 

[normtheunsavoury]

'Only the truly divine deny their divinity'.

'What!?! Well what sort of chance does that give me!? Alright I am the Messiah!'

 

[Giant Fossil Penguin]

@ck: Ah, gotcha; like the short-sighted lady of the night, I missed the point...

As to the Emperor's divinity being contradicted by the Heresy and what has happened since, I don't think that's the case. In one of the Daemon armybook/codex (I forget which), there is a story about how Tzeentch had become pre-eminent over the other 3 gods. They didn't like this and got together, led by Khorne, to bring Tzeentch down, forever weakening him/her/it/them/knaoierg. If 3 chaos gods acting together can cause so much damage to one of their own and was something that Tzeentch didn't seem to see coming, then how is the Emperor supposed to act any differently?
He is attacked psychically, as Magnus' actions leave him tied to the Golden Throne fighting off daemons; his realm is attacked physically, his gengineered sons and their supporters ripping it apart and then attacking him physically, the power of the four gods of chaos added to that of a Primarch. That the Emperor survived in any way is proof that he is far above any consideration of being merely a super-powered Human.
From the point of view of the average 30k citizen, how could the Emperor not appear to be a god? And the fact that he is keeping the Imperium safe from the worst depridations of chaos, whilst seeming to be dead, only strengthen the claim that he is a god.

OT: If the religious framework of the Imperium is still firmly based on the footings provided by Lorgar, then I wonder how he feels about it? Would he be darkly amused as he plans its downfall, or would it drive him into a rage as his past errors of judgement are used to worship what he considers to be a fraud?

GFP

 

[LordofFenris]

However, it is a widely held belief that the Emperor would have abandoned his sons on the road to God Hood, an idea Lorgar founded. The word Bearers however base their religious beliefs on how to worship Chaos and their hatred of the Imperium is more personal than religous

Very interesting.....that can be further backed up if you are willing to go on the word of Tzeentch of one of his daemons.....he showed Magnus a vision where the Emperor intended him to be sitting on the Golden Throne, doing what the Emperor does but at the cost of his physical body. There is no doubt the Emperor would have cast off his sons if it meant true Godhood.

 

[LordofFenris]

If 3 chaos gods acting together can cause so much damage to one of their own and was something that Tzeentch didn't seem to see coming, then how is the Emperor supposed to act any differently?

GFP

Tzeentch probably did see it coming, but as is his nature he chose to let the change come.

 

[Belthazor Aurellius]

So, who is to say, if Tzeentch saw his downfall, and allowed the change to happen, that the Emperor did not see things coming, and for whatever bizzarre reason, decided to allow Horus to be corrupted. He did after all, more or less, push each traitor to it in rather douchebaggish ways. Interesting point overall though, that Lorgar founded the Imperial Cult, and is also first amongst priests of Chaos...

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

So, who is to say, if Tzeentch saw his downfall, and allowed the change to happen, that the Emperor did not see things coming...

Because Tzeentch is eternal, knows the thoughts and actions of every creature across space and time, knows the entire past and present and has the Fateweaver for unparalleled knowledge of the future. During the time you refer to as well he also is said to have 'ruled over all creation'. The Emperor has no such advantages.