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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Greetings heretics!

I'm in a bit of a pickle that I cannot crunch - And as such, I could use the collective brainstorm that is Heresy!

By now it's only a matter of time before someone in my battlegroup brings along a Imperial Knight. I will keep my opinions of this model to myself, but I have to face the facts; It will come at some point.

The problem is that, as a Daemon player, I simply can't find a counter to it. As far as I understand it, and keep in mind I haven't played apocalypse so I might be wrong, the following is true regarding it:

- Its a 13/12/12 walking behemoth, so it cannot be exploded, but takes D3 HP instead. It has 6 HP.
- It has a STR D chainsword. STR D ignores cover, armor and invulnerable saves. It also causes multiple wounds.
- It can have a 4++ on 1 side of it, which has to be decided each turn.

Usually I either shoot a unit in the back with STR 5/6 Tzeentch psykers or assault a vehicle to kill it. The way I see it, both those options are null and void.

- I can maybe glance it from behind with psykers, but that's not a valid strategy. It's not stable enough to count on.
- I cannot assault it with my Daemon Princes, as they will completely destroyed by the STR D weapon.
- I cannot even put a screamerstar as a last resort as the STR D ignore invulnerable saves.

The only option I see at this point is to ally in some CSM for this one particular unit, but that breaks my daemon-heart as I prefer to play pure Daemon.

Anyone got a golden idea or some kind of tip regarding this unit? What am I missing?
 

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Rattlehead
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Knights can't realistically do anything to Flyers or Flying Monstrous Creatures. As such, Daemon Princes of Slaanesh are your guys - they fly into rear/side armour (try and get one Prince in each facing so at least one of them negates the Ion Shield) and do their Str6 hits plus Vector Strike, then keep on Flying while the Knights try and shoot them down with Heavy Stubbers. Sure, you won't be killing them in one turn, but you'll probably do a couple of Hull Points here and there and take very little damage in return. Once they're down to two or three Hull Points left, then land and go for the charge since you're higher initiative. If you don't kill him, he'll kill you, but if he's weakened on Hull Points then a pair of Princes using Smash should certainly finish him off.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I did consider this, but it is solid advice - Thanks!

However, my fear with this strategy is is that the opponent will see this as the only weakness and simply convert all of his firepower to bringing down these Daemon Princes. After all, I'm committing between 600-900 points to bring down a 370 point unit which can backfire pretty badly.

It is a strategy however, and at least one way to handle it.
 

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How about plague bearers? Their weapons have armour bane so with a couple of big squads you can potentially glance it to death.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
How about plague bearers? Their weapons have armour bane so with a couple of big squads you can potentially glance it to death.
A valid point, as they always glance on 6's with "Touch of rust". However, 2 things sprung to mind:

1) They're incredibly slow and can easily be maneuvered around.

2) If I charge with 20 of them, according to my math, I would do roughly 3½ glancing hits (after to-hit and to-penetrate rolls are made). If the guy with Imperial Knight saw this coming, he would put the shield up and grant him a 4++ on his front armor. He would then save half of of the glances, resulting in 1-2 glances. After this, he would cause so many wounds that I would (with almost certainty) fail demonic instability and get completely butchered by the gods. As I don't know what the initiative of a Imperial Knight is, I'm not sure if I get all 40 attacks on the charge either.

On the other hand, I could get lucky. But since it's only glances, I can't even hope for a weapon destroyed or stunned result, which would save my bacon.
 

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The downside to assaulting it with plaguebearers is it's gonna kill quite a lot every turn, what with D weapons and stomp, and if and when you kill it, all the plaugebearers die for the catastrophic detonation. I think the shield is only for shooting attacks.
 

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No it only works against shooting, in cc the Knight is pretty vulnerable. I like the idea of the big blob of Plaguebearers, just DS of your Plague Drones with a Herald tucked in there somewhere and you've got a unit that won't die to the knights shooting and will rip it to pieces in return. Also you can tarpit it with a big unit of Nurglings like there's no tomorrow^^.
 

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Argh that's right, Daemonic Instability will most likely be the end of them. (or not if you have a hand in rolling snake eyes xD) I'm pretty sure there's alot of other more viable options for tarpitting a knight, just remember that it's the stomp attacks you should be watchfull for since he's unlikely to do much with his Strength D weapon as he only has 3 attacks. (not 100% sure on that, could have been 4 but that hardly matters)
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
he's unlikely to do much with his Strength D weapon as he only has 3 attacks. (not 100% sure on that, could have been 4 but that hardly matters)
Well 3 STR D attacks can be quite devastating as he can cause multiple wounds with 1 attack. I believe it's something like this, when rolling to-wound:

1: No wound
2-5: Model loses D3+1 wounds
6: D6+6 wounds

Thats alot of wounds even with 3 attacks :S
 

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My understanding is that they are wounds to a model, not to a unit. So if he only has 4 attacks he can only remove 4 models.
 

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2 Daemon Princes should be able to kill it in 1 turn on the charge. It can't use it's shield in CC and if they Smash, they have between them 8 attacks with rerolls to armour penetration. On average this would give you 4 penetrating hits and 1 glancing. So you have 4 attempts to roll a 5+ on the damage table, and if you can do that, the knight goes down.

And even so, if I remember correctly, Knights only have a WS of 4, so with your princes WS 9, it's still far from guaranteed it will kill a prince should it survive.

My understanding is that they are wounds to a model, not to a unit. So if he only has 4 attacks he can only remove 4 models.
Also this. Plaguebearers shouldn't have too many problems tarpitting one of those fuckers.
 

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As midnight said, lash of submission princes (preferably with iron arm) will make short work of it. Plaguebearers would too, however unless he's barreling it into your lines it'll be hard to get them in close combat. With princes having a very high initiative, you have good odds of smashing it down once weakened. Also remember it'll be retaliating with 3 attacks hittin on 5+, so it could whiff completely.

Alternatively; ignore it. It's shooting is meaningless to you for the most part. Throw a large unit at it to buy a turn or two.
 

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My understanding is that they are wounds to a model, not to a unit. So if he only has 4 attacks he can only remove 4 models.
^This is the exact reason why I think the power of (CC) Strength D weapons is greatly exaggerated. Unless it has a fuckton of attacks like the Lord of Skulls it depends on the stomp attacks to get itself out of a tarpit. The Strength D weapons are designed to kill MSU which the current meta mostly consists of. It can't handle a big blob of expandable infantry.

The Knights are the least powerfull superheavies in the game and once you get over the initial "omg it's Escalation, it's OP! Nerf plx!" you'll find there's hundreds of ways to deal with them and your opponent suddenly has to try very hard to keep the bloody things alive. If you're playing Chaos I would suggest looking into the new Hellbrute formations; DSing multimelta's with the possibillity of firing twice in a turn? Yes pls!
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
once you get over the initial "omg it's Escalation, it's OP! Nerf plx!" you'll find there's hundreds of ways to deal with them and your opponent suddenly has to try very hard to keep the bloody things alive.
To be honest, my main problem with the Imperial Knight, is that it is a Escalation unit, that can be used without the Escalation addition to the game. In the campaign we play, I have refued to add Escalation as I think it's ridiculous. But this one is a unit that has STR D weapons and can be brought either way, as it's beyond that addition. But enough about my opinions of the unit.

So to sum it up, the main ways to go about it would be:

1) 2-3 Deamon princes and either smash or Lash it to death.
2) Blobs of Plaguebearers who would glance it to death with Touch of Rust
3) Ally in Helbrutes via CSM and bring them in a formation to melta it.

Well at least it gives me a couple of ways to handle it. The fact that the shield doesn't work in CC is a big up on my early estimations, so it does help alot.

Thanks guys, you're awesome! :good:
 

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If the pure Daemon theme is your thing, then you can ally in some Oblits as they have the Daemon rule (meaning you can even hit them with the Grimoire!) and then take your Cultist 'tax' to represent the poor stupid mortals who've gone and unleashed all this hell in the first place.

MoN Oblits require S10 to insta-kill, and can at least open up with some lascannon fire, helping you to strip the shield and open up the other facings to your Flickering Fire/Lash Princes.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well first try today - Didn't exactly go as expected.

I put a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, with armor, wings and 2 greater gifts on the table, alongside Bel'Akor.

The Daemon Prince gets toast in round 2, as he gets 9 wounds and i roll 5 2's. Allrighty then.
After that, Bel'Akor charges in wiffs 4 of his 6 attacks. Remember that he is hitting on 3's. 1 pen and 1 glance.

The Imperial Knight strikes back, hits once and rolls a 6 - So Bel'Akor is removed from play.

Good game. How swell it is that GW decided to introduce a STR D model into regular games that you cannot exclude as it doesn't require escalation.

Gah.
 

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Well first try today - Didn't exactly go as expected.

I put a Tzeentch Daemon Prince, with armor, wings and 2 greater gifts on the table, alongside Bel'Akor.

The Daemon Prince gets toast in round 2, as he gets 9 wounds and i roll 5 2's. Allrighty then.
After that, Bel'Akor charges in wiffs 4 of his 6 attacks. Remember that he is hitting on 3's. 1 pen and 1 glance.

The Imperial Knight strikes back, hits once and rolls a 6 - So Bel'Akor is removed from play.

Good game. How swell it is that GW decided to introduce a STR D model into regular games that you cannot exclude as it doesn't require escalation.

Gah.
I think you were on the right path here, just that the dice rolls were not in your favor this game.

Still, I can imagine how frustrating it is facing a STR D weapon, even if it is a CC weapon, in a standard game.

Is ignoring it a possibility at all? Just kill off the rest of the opponent while the Knight tackles one unit at a time?
 

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Herald of The Warp
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Is ignoring it a possibility at all? Just kill off the rest of the opponent while the Knight tackles one unit at a time?
It was a 1250 point game, so it wasn't really an option - It shoots 2 bigblasts and 2 heavy stubbers per turn, so it can do considerable damage if left unchecked.

In the end it turned up a draw - But only due to me covering with my last scoring troops behind a house while he bombarded the entire country.
 
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