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Discussion Starter #1
I'm thinking of dropping the ironclad I have in my current list, the main reason being while it has the potential to cause problems the majority of the time it only succeeds it redirecting fire away from my vindicator and usually goes down. Plus if I have the first turn it's a pretty easy way of giving away first blood.

So instead I'm thinking of replacing it with a dreadnought equipped with two twin-linked autocannons and a land speeder equipped with a multi melta. I don't have much in my list that can deal with aircraft to be honest and after some games at my local store I know the regulars tend to have at least 1 in their force some even have two, maybe the rifleman could help with that problem?

The Landspeeder with multi melta could fulfill the same role as the ironclad except I'd have to roll for it starting from the second turn instead of turning up automatically on the first turn. It is cheaper though and a lot less points lost on such a gamble.

So what do you think is this a good idea?
 

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I don't have much in my list that can deal with aircraft to be honest and after some games at my local store I know the regulars tend to have at least 1 in their force some even have two, maybe the rifleman could help with that problem?
As it doesn't have skyfire I doubt it. Mortis dreadnoughts from IA are wicked for anti air but only usable by DA, aside from that pick up an ADL. If you facing AV10/11 fliers, use the TLAC/QG and if you're going up against AV12 it's a safer bet going with the TLLC/ICL. Less shots, but 6's to pen is a bit risky for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ok maybe it's not the best for anti air, the armies I'm facing are eldar, dark eldar, necrons, imperial guard, for example one army had like 4 or 5 dark eldar raiders, another army had a wave serpent and a forgeworld hornet (think that's what it's called) the necrons all have those ark things, so maybe it's still useful?

I could have that riflemen dread and the aegis defense line but not the multi melta landspeeder. I have a AGL already but I'm using the autocannons off it for the rifleman dread lol.
 

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S7 just won't reliably pen AV12 or up. ADL w/QG will actually be anti-air and work well against Necron fliers and decently enough against AV12 whereas the rifleman will do virtually nothing against air. If you want something more reliable for armour hunting I would have to consider the whole list as opposed to individual models for the role. Personally, I favour using MM attack bikes as fast anti-armour as they are T5 and have two wounds plus Jink. They are also nice and low to the ground and can use cover nicely. Speeders can get owned a bit too easily for my liking and since they are raised they present a bit more of a target.

If you're looking to augment your anti air and anti armour I'd go ADL w/ILC and a auto/las predator personally. Works great for me in my BA army, I typically use scouts to man the ADL and the sergeant (BS4) to fire the ILC or QG.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
This is my current list HQ
Chapter Master - (Darnath Lysander) - 200pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (10) - combi-flamer / flamer/ missile launcher - 180pts
Rhino - 35pts

Tactical Squad (10) - combi-plasma / plasma gun / multi melta- 190pts
Rhino - 35pts

Elites
Terminator Squad (5) - assault cannon - 230pts

Ironclad Dreadnought - chainfist / heavy flamer / melta gun - 145pts
Drop pod - 35pts

Heavy Support
Vindicator - 115 pts

Devastator Squad (5) - 4 missile launchers - 150pts
Razorback - twin linked assault cannon / storm bolter - 85pts

Thunderfire Cannon - 100pts


Total - 1500pts
 

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I would drop the combi-weapons on both tactical squads. As much as I think they look cool, one use weapons are kinda weak for the points as far as I'm concerned. Also, MG's over MM's to stay mobile.

Swap the AC for a CML in the Terminator squad using the points you saves from the Tacs. Again, I love AC's but the CML just has more uses for only a few more points.

If you have the parts, go TLLC on the Razorback with the Devastators. Gets you some S9 at range where you have none. I'd also say this squad should man the ADL should you take it, but you may one turn end up with snap shots from 4 MLs on a flier where all you wanted to do was shoot the emplaced weapon. One of the tactical squads may very well play better in this role, potentially the heavy weapon toting half of the combat squads you could make.

Do you face much AV14?
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I've yet to see any Av14 yet, at most I've seen a leman russ at AV13. Majority of the armies I see are troop orientated, for example my last opponent had an avatar and eldrad with a large bodyguard of wraithblades, a squad of dire avengers a large squad of guardians, a squad of banshees in a wave serpent, a horn and the new eldar aircraft. I know one of the guards in the store uses a land raider though. The combi weapons have worked really well for me though, double the damage a squad can pump out in one turn has reduced banshees to nothing but the exarch and the plasma guns helps me with heavy armour troops like the wraithguard etc.

Edit: What about this?

HQ
Chapter Master - (Darnath Lysander) - 200pts

Troops
Tactical Squad (10) - combi-flamer / flamer/ missile launcher - 180pts
Rhino - 35pts

Tactical Squad (10) - combi-plasma / plasma gun / multi melta- 190pts
Rhino - 35pts

Elites
Terminator Squad (5) - assault cannon / chain fist - 235pts

Dreadnought - 2 twin-linked autocannons - 125pts

Heavy Support
Vindicator - 115 pts

Devastator Squad (5) - 4 missile launchers - 150pts
Razorback - twin linked heavy flamer - 65pts

Thunderfire Cannon - 100pts

Fortitifcation
Aegis Defence Line - Icarus Lascannon - 70

Total - 1500pts
 

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Take plasma to your liking, I just mean that if you want melta in the squad take a MG over a MM to remain mobile. Keeping in mind that you're not facing any AV14 it's almost not even worth worrying about. Having a solid S9 presence matters against AV13 still though, as S8 glances on 5's and S7 can only glance on a roll of 6.

I would still swap the TLAC on the RB for a TLLC and swap out the Ironclad for an ADL w/ILC. That leaves you with 95 points you could use spend on more meatshield for your devastators (which you could then combat squad them to advance in the RB on an objective in BGNT or have the bolter squad fire the ILC) or even a couple MM attack bikes if you've the models. (my reference for points values is skewed for this as it comes from the BA dex. I'm assuming you pay slightly less for things as you don't have the Red Thirst rule or Fast tanks).
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What about the changes above? I dropped the ironclad and added the dreadnought, aegis defence line with lascannon but had to reduce the razorback to a twin linked flamer. Armour 13 is still pretty rare in the armies I face.

I don't have any more marine models so it's a bit hard to expand the devs at the moment, I don't have any bikers yet in fact I don't have the thunderfire cannon which is what I'm getting this week. I figure the thunderfire can go behind the aegis defence line (can it be bolstered?)
 

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RB's are 65 points without an upgraded turret?! Nuts. I always take TLHB's on my RB's. The flamers are just too short ranged for my tastes.

If you're not facing much AV13 then you're golden I'd wager. Use the ILC with skyfire and you never will run into the instance where you're using krak missiles on snap shots rather than where they'll do more reliable damage....assuming you're manning it with the Devastators.

I do not think that you can bolster an ADL, but it's worth checking out in the BRB and FAQs for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
65 points with an upgraded turret it's 40 points basic, 25 points for the heavy flamer. I like my flamers, dunno why but I get immense satisfaction of laying them over a squad and watching half the squad burn especially when they are in cover, as for the razorback it's twin-linked so it lets you reroll to wound and armour penetration rolls.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Heh well the only turrets I have for my razorback are the twin linked lascannon, the heavy flamer and the assault cannon, so the cheapest of those is the flamer, I would prefer the assault cannon though, it took down a wave serpent in it's first turn of firing, I just can't figure out where to cut 10 points, unless I dig out a veteran sergeant model from somewhere and drop the combi-plasma.
 

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it took down a wave serpent in it's first turn of firing
By rolling a 6 to rend and getting a pen I believe, Wave Serpents are AV12 front and side, right? Keep in mind that AP2 from rending does not apply to armour penetration rules. 4 dice needing a 6 or on dice needing a 4+, it can go either way. The TLAC remains much more functional against infantry once armour has been dealt with, and being a BA player I have spammed them like holy fuck (Baals, Stormravens and RB's ALL with TLAC :crazy:). Even with a dozen of them on the table I'm still left with the overwhelming (and for me, proven) feeling that relying on 6's to deal with AV12 and up is a bad idea. It's really up to your meta though, I'm up against armour every time I play and simply can not have an assault cannon ping off anything uselessly. I use them basically only on infantry, and occasionally on rear armour as my vehicles are fast and the Baals even have scout/outflank.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Oh yeah it was quite lucky but it's twin linked as well so it has a good chance to hit with all it's shots, he failed his jink save to. I have other things to take them down, I have the dev squad with missile launchers, in my original list I had a 10 man squad with two plasma cannons and 2 lascannons but it was to expensive which is why I cut it down.

If in my next game I do come up against a heavy tank problem I'll make some changes, the heaviest tank I've seen is a land raider from a single marine player but that was in an apoc game, not sure he'd use it in a 1.5k game.

The way I see it, it's infantry that wins scenarios, I'd rather destroy the rest of the enemy army so he can't claim objectives, for example in the last game the guy had a big unit of wraithblades with an avatar and eldrad, a banshee squad in wave serpent, a big unit of guardians with a scatter laser, a dire avenger squad, a hornet and an aircraft. I was lucky the hornet and aircraft didn't turn up until turn 4.

I took out the banshees and dire avengers and he had less than half his guardians left, by the end of the game I was on two objectives, had first blood because of the wave serpent going in the first turn, he had 1 objective and had killed my commander. So I won on victory points by 2 in the end.

What I took away from it was I needed more fire power to force him into making saves because even with his re-rollable armour saves from Eldrad's fortune he was still failing. My ironclad dropped in and was promptly destroyed after roasting around 4 guardians which is why I felt compelled to remove it from my next game, it was a waste of points.
 

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it's infantry that wins scenarios
Absolutely, though I gotta point out your 2 10 man scoring units after that :whistle:. I totally gun down my opponent's troops, but in my games I simply can't ignore the armour that backs them up. Use what works in your games for sure man.

What I took away from it was I needed more fire power to force him into making saves because even with his re-rollable armour saves from Eldrad's fortune he was still failing. My ironclad dropped in and was promptly destroyed after roasting around 4 guardians which is why I felt compelled to remove it from my next game, it was a waste of points.
If you're looking for high volume of shots dakka preds put out 6 S5 shots and 2 S7. Even a second Thunderfire Cannon would likely do more damage than the rifleman...not that I don't like me a good dreadnought, I just am a little underwhelmed by them on the table top. I'm also spoiled by my Furiosos.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah I'm working on getting more troops although not sure how I could add more into 1.5k which is what my local store plays mostly. I do have some old metal scouts about 6 of them with close combat weapons, one with a heavy bolter, dunno if that's worth adding tho.
 

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So you get where I'm coming from in my advice, this is the 1500 point list I run most often. It has yet to be beaten by my buddies to the tune of I think 7-0-1.

HQ

Reclusiarch - jump pack

ELITES

Furioso - BT, HF

TROOPS

10 man RAS - 2x MG, PF, DP

5 man RAS - MG, PS

2x 5 man Tactical Squads - RB w/TLHB

5 man Scout Squad - snipers, ML, camo

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator - LC sponsons, AC

Stormraven - TLLC, TLMM, HB

FORTIFICATION

ADL w/Quad Gun


Recently I've been swapping out the Reclusiarch for a Captain with either two LCs or an axe and sword. I have been using the ICL in other lists over the QG with much luck, but this list has been bossing people around so much I'm about to retire it. I know it's BA not SM, but you can see how many scoring units I take. Even just finding the points for one more tactical squad can be a huge game changer. I know it means dropping some muscle in other areas, but in your own words it's infantry that wins scenarios. I tend to build my lists troops out. I pick what I want to be my scoring units and then work outwards from there with supporting units. Scouts by themselves and I need air defense? ADL and Predator for them. Need some MEQ/horde assistance up front for my small marine squads? Furioso. Gotta get him there? Drop pod or Stormraven, and I loves me a good tank with wings.

I don't know if that generates any new thoughts when it comes to list building at all. I'm just yammering at this point :victory:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Nah it does. Problem with standard codex lists though is marine units require 10 marines for them to be able to get special and heavy weapons, so if I only have 5 man squads only the sergeant can carry anything of worth.

Most of my enemies appear immune to pinning in some shape or form so sniper scouts may not be the best choice to go with for me although equally close combat scouts are equally worthless, so not sure which type is best to go with. I could drop the dreadnought for a squad of them though in what ever form is best.
 

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so if I only have 5 man squads only the sergeant can carry anything of worth
Same with me for Tactical marines, but I can get RAS (regular assault squads) as troops which is boss. I typically play tacs in my RB's since the change to assaulting out of vehicles. Lets them unload 10 bolter shots with 3 HB shots, and they work together all the time, every time. 20 bolter shots and 6 HB shots damage most units I'm firing at. On occasion I play RB's with RAS but they have mad flame templates coming out while dangling TLAC's on top. It's a fun time, but only out of the BA dex for marines.

Most of my enemies appear immune to pinning in some shape or form
They never do anything aside from hold the objective I place behind the ADL with them and the Predator while being dicks to kill with their 3+ cover save. One time I outflanked them because I forgot to set them up and when they came on the ML shot a missile right up the ass of a Vindicator snap shot and all. That's about it. The sergeant with the QG/ILC however...he's got my back for Valkyries and Heldrakes. If I cause pinning that's a pretty huge surprise for me!
 
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