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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Even ignoring my other thread where I gave links to Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned, Lexicanum cites the book for the shaman origin.








Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned is cited for the shaman origin at the bottom of the Emperor's Lexicanum page with the other cited sources. I have Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned as Christmas presents. I saw someone named Prince Endymion on here say the shaman origin is a theory that was not published anywhere at all. If he is still here, then I take it you haven't followed 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader or own stuff from the first edition of 40k? Its alright. But do your research (if you are still here) before saying that. The lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader was awesome.



https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WARHAMME...F-CHAOS-THE-LOST-AND-THE-DAMNED-/382270144333

https://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-40-000-Rogue-Trader/dp/1869893239

https://spikeybits.com/2018/01/nurgles-lost-the-damned-realms-of-chaos.html

https://spikeybits.com/2018/01/nurgles-lost-the-damned-realms-of-chaos.html

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/06/40k-retro-corner-realm-of-chaos-lost-and-the-damned.html



 

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then I take it you haven't followed 40k since 1st Edition Rogue Trader or own stuff from the first edition of 40k? Its alright. But do your research (if you are still here) before saying that.
I neither own things from the days of rogue trader nor have I ever played first edition (or second edition for that matter.) Not everyone has, in fact fewer and fewer people will have met either of those criteria when it comes to 40k. These days the shaman origin is hazy and seems to be a bit left in the dust by GW.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I neither own things from the days of rogue trader nor have I ever played first edition (or second edition for that matter.) Not everyone has, in fact fewer and fewer people will have met either of those criteria when it comes to 40k. These days the shaman origin is hazy and seems to be a bit left in the dust by GW.

Are you Endymion? The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
 

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Are you Endymion? The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
What? No I'm not.


I know that the shaman origin was printed in first edition, you've said it repeatedly. Did you actually read what I wrote? Its been nearly three decades since the shaman origin was created, and unless I'm mistaken it was never brought into further editions since then.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
What? No I'm not.


I know that the shaman origin was printed in first edition, you've said it repeatedly. Did you actually read what I wrote? Its been nearly three decades since the shaman origin was created, and unless I'm mistaken it was never brought into further editions since then.

Alright. But why did Endymion say that? Was he too young to know about the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader? I wouldn't be surprised if it was older than him.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok mate, you know best. You're obviously not interested in starting an actual discussion, preferring to loudly correct perceived errors in random long dead threads, so good luck with that.


Sorry if I came off as a jerk. What can we discuss? I was saying Endymion was wrong. The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
 

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Sorry if I came off as a jerk. What can we discuss? I was saying Endymion was wrong. The shaman origin was printed in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

There's no discussion to be had if you're not willing to budge on this. Long standing lore in second and third edition codexes has been retconned in more recent editions, stories told in codexes are sometimes contradicted by novels, and novels occasionally completely get the lore wrong. To claim something is canon simply because it existed in the first edition is folly, especially considering it has never been mentioned since.



Trying to pin specific things down as canon gets harder the further back the lore goes, especially given the amount of things that have changed since then. Just as a few examples, there were no mentions of Perpetuals in earlier editions, and the lore regarding Living Saints was much less fleshed out. The role the necrons had in the wider setting has been thrown into question, and the very nature of the Warp itself has been altered with the introduction of the material called Blackstone just this edition.



The Emperor could simply be a powerful psyker and a perpetual for all we know. He could be using Chaos Himself. He could be manipulating Blackstone somehow. There simply isn't enough confirmed anymore to say with absolute clarity that the Shaman Origin is canon, even if it is still cited on pages like Lexicanum.



And given that many younger/newer players aren't even aware of the older lore, trying to assert it is more or less pointless.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
There's no discussion to be had if you're not willing to budge on this. Long standing lore in second and third edition codexes has been retconned in more recent editions, stories told in codexes are sometimes contradicted by novels, and novels occasionally completely get the lore wrong. To claim something is canon simply because it existed in the first edition is folly, especially considering it has never been mentioned since.



Trying to pin specific things down as canon gets harder the further back the lore goes, especially given the amount of things that have changed since then. Just as a few examples, there were no mentions of Perpetuals in earlier editions, and the lore regarding Living Saints was much less fleshed out. The role the necrons had in the wider setting has been thrown into question, and the very nature of the Warp itself has been altered with the introduction of the material called Blackstone just this edition.



The Emperor could simply be a powerful psyker and a perpetual for all we know. He could be using Chaos Himself. He could be manipulating Blackstone somehow. There simply isn't enough confirmed anymore to say with absolute clarity that the Shaman Origin is canon, even if it is still cited on pages like Lexicanum.



And given that many younger/newer players aren't even aware of the older lore, trying to assert it is more or less pointless.


The shaman origin is not just old, its from the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I'm willing to bet Endymion was a younger player.

And I gave permitted links to the book with the shaman origin in my thread post here.
 

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That has nothing to do with anything I just said. You're just repeating yourself and looking for someone to agree with you.



Th shaman origin is not just old, its from the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I'm willing to bet Endymion was a younger player.

And I and others said A LOT has changed since then. I even gave you examples.



And I gave permitted links to the book with the shaman origin in my thread post here.

Nobody is denying that this lore exists. Whether it is still canon is completely open to interpretation. I prefer to think, given the amount of changes to the lore in recent editions, that the shaman origin isn't necessarily canon anymore given what we now know about the connection between humankind and the warp. The Emperor may well be the most powerful human psyker, or he could be one among numerous others, or he could simply be gifted with a level of foresight that most humans simply don't possess.



I've read about low level psykers who can do simple things like read minds or move small objects with their thoughts. And I've read about Omega Level psykers who can forcibly mind control entire cities' worth of imperial citizens. It isn't necessarily the raw power levels that make a psyker what they are, but rather their imagination in regards to using their abilities.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
That has nothing to do with anything I just said. You're just repeating yourself and looking for someone to agree with you.






And I and others said A LOT has changed since then. I even gave you examples.












Nobody is denying that this lore exists. Whether it is still canon is completely open to interpretation. I prefer to think, given the amount of changes to the lore in recent editions, that the shaman origin isn't necessarily canon anymore given what we now know about the connection between humankind and the warp. The Emperor may well be the most powerful human psyker, or he could be one among numerous others, or he could simply be gifted with a level of foresight that most humans simply don't possess.



I've read about low level psykers who can do simple things like read minds or move small objects with their thoughts. And I've read about Omega Level psykers who can forcibly mind control entire cities' worth of imperial citizens. It isn't necessarily the raw power levels that make a psyker what they are, but rather their imagination in regards to using their abilities.



And the Cacodominus could mind control 1,300 systems, and its death scream burned the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorted the signal of the Astronomican.



Well, Prince Endymion denied it. Does that count?


And the Emperor can grant immortality and resurrect the dead as with Living saints such as Celestine and Sabbot, and the Guardians of the Void Dragon. He is no mere psyker.



Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.



That quote was from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum
 

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The shaman origin was written in Rogue trader a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Endymion was wrong about that, you were right. Time to exhale deeply, breath in joy and move on
 
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