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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
**SPOILERS DOWN BELOW**
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Okay, I'm currently reading the the Space Wolves 2nd Omnibus and I finished the part in which Brother Captain Jeremiah dueled the Fallen Cadmus in 1v1 and while they were bantering back and forth, Jeremiah spoke of how Cadmus had betrayed everything he'd once held dear and then stuck Cadmus in the belly with his sword. After that, Cadmus (clearly defeated) said something to the effect of how the only real betrayal was that of their primarch (nothing more could be said, due to Jeremiah finishing him off as he said that).

Now, with that bit of info out of the way, we know that the Lion is in stasis, deep on the rock with (basically) only the Emperor knowing he's down there. I believe I read here similar belief that the Lion was quite possibly a traitor (such things seem to be confirmed in the material I just mentioned). Is there anything else out there that would confirm it also? Even give more detail on things?
 

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The Emperor Protects
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http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71243
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72773
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10033
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14258

These all go into it quite a bit. For my part though, i don't believe for a second the Lion was a traitor. Beyond the words of the fallen, whose words can hardly be trusted, there is no evidence to show he is, if anything the Horus Heresy series enforces his complete loyalty. It's also worth mentioning he broke the Siege of Terra with Russ.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Speaking of the Dark Angels, there's what? 2 or 3 books for them out there? Angel of Darkness and what else? (I know I shouldn't be looking into getting more as I've currently got left to read: Ultramarines Omnibus and the 3 Gaunts Ghosts Omnibus before I move onto anything else).
 

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Craw-Daddy
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It for the most part is still up in the air. The Lion does have that mystery part of him. Mostly for a reason, so that he differentiates from the other Primarchs. I personally don't believe... anymore... that the Lion is a traitor. But there is nothing for or against him that strongly supports what was going on with him and his legion during the Siege of Terra.

A few things to note though, was that he was an ambitious and arrogant primarch that wanted to become Warmaster. Whether his intentions hurt or supported the Imperium during this time, he most definitely did not want Horus to end up ruling the Imperium.

So the Lion so far could be looked at like am arrogant Primarch who unknowingly gave the siege weapons to Perturabo, and then got ambushed by the Night Lords so that he was not in time to save Terra from Horus.

Or he wasn't a traitor persae, instead conciliated something even more sinister... which was to watch the Imperium and the traitor forces of Horus burn so that he could grab the Imperium for his own...

In most likely though, though it sounds pretty interesting, I would go with the first one. Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.
 

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Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.
now that would be worth reading about. Think the lion debate has gone on for a while and there are those that say he was there are those who say he wasn't for my part i believe he was just watching and waiting to see who did win and how best to consolodate his leigons position but thats my two pennath
 

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**SPOILERS DOWN BELOW**
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**End Spoiler Warning**
Your spoiler warning is..... interesting lol! If you want to use spoiler tags:

Spoiler tags = [XspoilerX] your post [/XspoilerX] only without the X's

Its probably quicker than your alternative but it's up to you. :)

Speaking of the Dark Angels, there's what? 2 or 3 books for them out there? Angel of Darkness and what else? (I know I shouldn't be looking into getting more as I've currently got left to read: Ultramarines Omnibus and the 3 Gaunts Ghosts Omnibus before I move onto anything else).
If you want more of the Fallen's ramblings and have the anthology Let the Galaxy Burn they feature in two short stories within it: The Black Pearl and Unforgiven. Although it doesn't really add anything significant, just the usual mud slinging.

Not sure if you've read Fallen Angels or not so this may contain spoilers for you but if you want my opinion...



By the way speaking with the benefit of hindsight I wouldn't waste my time reading any of the DA related books mentioned in this thread (or much else for that matter) if you have Gaunts Ghosts and, to a lesser extent, Ultramarines books to get through.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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I would guess it's probably more to do with what the Lion did to Caliban than anything to do with him actually being a traitor to the Imperium.
Other than possibly installing a secret survivor of another knighthood to oversee literature on metaphysical concepts that didn't seem to apply to Caliban anymore, I'm not sure what the Lion did to his adopted homeworld.

The insurgents on Caliban demonize the Primarch for betraying them, but their accusations seem to boil down to "he told us he defeated the monsters, but now, fifty years later, they're back!" And... the Lion can do what exactly about this, given that (A) everyone thought they were destroyed back in the day and (B) Luther has been suppressing all negative information regarding what is happening on Caliban (such as the insurgency, the equipment shortfalls, etc.)?

Assume the Lion did pour over the Lupus library and saw writings on how some ancient daemonic forces infested the planet. Aside from monsters, which, by the way, due to their ignorance they couldn't tie to Chaos, it's not like there was any evidence of this actually happening. Then the Imperium shows up, and squashes that kind of "mysticism" even more.

But there is nothing for or against him that strongly supports what was going on with him and his legion during the Siege of Terra.
Actually, there is. He was traveling with the Space Wolves. They themselves corroborate this, and their legends even state he argued with Russ so that they would get there sooner.

A few things to note though, was that he was an ambitious and arrogant primarch that wanted to become Warmaster. Whether his intentions hurt or supported the Imperium during this time, he most definitely did not want Horus to end up ruling the Imperium.
Ambitious, yes. Arrogant, no. In fifty years, the Lion racked up a record third only to Horus (longest standing) and Dorn (second only to Horus). Guilliman would have been the only individual he should have to worry about as a legitimate contender... and old Roboute would have had zero role in stopping the Heresy (assuming it had just been Horus and his three allied Legions, of course).

"Horus Rising" states that the Lion was "cynically resolved, unsurprised by the turn of events"--as in, "yeah, yeah, big surprise, he was with the Emperor the longest"*. Not as in he had some sort of a beef or vendetta.

* Interestingly, the same quote states Russ also was cynically resolved. What I like about this is that it was the first hint that Russ was not the brawling barbarian we all thought him to be. Knowing what we know now, this is likely a reflection of Russ, the Emperor's Executioner, cynically understanding that the guise he and his Legion wore, and his unwholesome role as a slayer of brethren, kept him out of the running.

Or he wasn't a traitor persae, instead conciliated something even more sinister... which was to watch the Imperium and the traitor forces of Horus burn so that he could grab the Imperium for his own...
One Legion against even the tattered remnants of NINE others would have had no chance.

In most likely though, though it sounds pretty interesting, I would go with the first one. Especially since I think though the Lion did do some foolish thing, he would know Guilliman would have gone in there and just pimp slapped him.
Agree to disagree on this one. The Lion grabbed an obscure, century-old factoid to almost seal the deal on the biggest war the Galaxy had ever seen before it even really got started. Not that I think he would be (A) stupid or (B) disloyal enough to take on the Imperium, but I doubt Guilliman would somehow have been the threat that kept him in line.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Ambitious, yes. Arrogant, no. In fifty years, the Lion racked up a record third only to Horus (longest standing) and Dorn (second only to Horus). Guilliman would have been the only individual he should have to worry about as a legitimate contender... and old Roboute would have had zero role in stopping the Heresy (assuming it had just been Horus and his three allied Legions, of course).
I would have to agree to disagree on this one. The Lion was pretty arrogant to think because he simply racked up a good toll count that he would have been the next in line for contention. I mean if he really was, he wouldn't have tried so desperately to obtain those siege weapons for Perturabo for his support. After all, it really falls onto the Emperor to decide who would become the next Warmaster. I think by doing this (you could agree or not) it was the Lion having doubts that the Emperor would chose him over a couple other Primarchs.

And then you'd have to ask, did the Emperor really just pick Horus because of his racked up victories? I would have said that was part of it. But he really chose him because Horus' vision of the Imperium was closest to the his.

I believe it came down to trust and how well the Emperor knew his Warmaster. The Lion is too secretive compared to some of the relations the Emperor had with the other Primarchs. Granted, we have little information between him and the other Primarchs.

We also have what Horus believed to have been the most worthy of the title. Sanguinus. I think its safe to assume that the Lion didn't know he was going to die during the siege. As such, he may have been the next in line towards the title.


One Legion against even the tattered remnants of NINE others would have had no chance.
Probably not. This is where I lost my opinion on this matter quite a while ago. A few of the circumstances though, I think you could debate though. For one, he could have come to Terra the way Guilliman did. At that point considering he thinks the Emperor would have came out better than he did, he could have convinced the Emperor he was the rightful successer to the title. Afterall, Guilliman had his own empire to control.


Agree to disagree on this one. The Lion grabbed an obscure, century-old factoid to almost seal the deal on the biggest war the Galaxy had ever seen before it even really got started. Not that I think he would be (A) stupid or (B) disloyal enough to take on the Imperium, but I doubt Guilliman would somehow have been the threat that kept him in line.
I'm guessing your disagreeing with the two options. Lol, couldn't tell you put a lot into this one. I totally understand your position. After all, it is pretty much one of the most dangerous stances to try and defend. Especially with lack of evidence. The thing though, and I know GW didn't really think about the fluff before using the "fence sitter" theory, is to try and figure out how GW and the Heresy Team could go about this business if they ever decided to go this route (which they probably wont). But non the less, I still think it is possible.

Now going back to the second option, I'm speaking in more a very basic look as well as I was doing with the first. The Lion would probably more specifically would have been quite about the whole ordeal. They obviously wouldn't have returned to Terra with thousands of angry and pissed off loyalist astartes and guardsmen armies and went "aha, I planned this out from the start, now I'm the Warmaster." All those men and also the entire legion of the Ultramarines is next to impossible. Even if he managed to pull that out of his ass and just out smarted all their armies, it would have been next to impossible to get the Imperium to go with him. There would have been so much unrest, plotting, and scheming. All of it against him.

More or less, he probably would have made it appear like he was late to Terra and that he had been preoccupied with the Horus' threat from a distance. Just like most of us think. To look like a true hero. I actually think Guilliman being the tactful genius he was, would have probably been okay with the Lion controlling most of the Empire. After all, Guilliman sacrificed a lot of his efforts and his astartes to restore the Imperium. Which is something I truly doubt he wanted to do. But he was the only mind, really intact over the ordeal. You have Khan, Vulkan, and Russ chasing down chaos to the unknown parts of the galaxy. You have Sanguinus and Manus dead. And you have the Pretorian of terra in blind hate, also going on his own crusade.


Though an unlikely plot against the Lion's loyalty, I do like the "second thought" that has been created about him. From all the little ironies, misfortunes, and other things going on during and after the Heresy. The idea that one legion, and one Primarch could have possibly changed everything if they and he had just been there is pretty cool. Its one of those other "ahhh fuck" moments of the Imperium.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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I would have to agree to disagree on this one. The Lion was pretty arrogant to think because he simply racked up a good toll count that he would have been the next in line for contention.
No... that's not the case. Hence why, after Ullanor, the Lion was, again, "cynically resolved" to the fact that he wouldn't become Warmaster--despite his combat record. On the other hand, though, given his combat record... and the fact Horus was no longer Warmaster... and the fact that he showed strategic intuition that escaped even the one Primarch stated to have had a military mind as great as Horus*... would make him a good candidate.

* Dorn's reaction to Garro's news about Horus: send seven Legions to beat up on Horus, while he returned to Terra to continue with defensive fortifications. Textbook, reasonable, solid.

Lion's reaction to the same: "I'm going to counter Horus' end-game before he even gets to it."

I mean if he really was, he wouldn't have tried so desperately to obtain those siege weapons for Perturabo for his support.
Desperate? I don't see your reasoning. He didn't obtain them for Perturabo. He obtained them to end the Heresy before it even got going. Perturabo was going to Isstvan V. Horus was dug in on Isstvan V. Perturabo was a siege master. The Lion had the most potent siege weapons in the Galaxy. Ergo...

After all, it really falls onto the Emperor to decide who would become the next Warmaster. I think by doing this (you could agree or not) it was the Lion having doubts that the Emperor would chose him over a couple other Primarchs.
I would say he was solidifying his position. Obviously the Emperor would choose, and then, just as before, X number of Primarchs would probably belly-ache. Perturabo being one of the ones to notably do so the last time around, having him on his side would go a long way toward quashing the B.S.

And then you'd have to ask, did the Emperor really just pick Horus because of his racked up victories? I would have said that was part of it. But he really chose him because Horus' vision of the Imperium was closest to the his.
The consistent theme boils down to military victories, being by the Emperor the longest, and "being the brightest"... without the latter being qualified very well. Ultimately, what it boils down is that Horus had been around the longest, had the most fame, and didn't have any knocks against him. It's not like anyone could argue against him because "he has implants that make him a berserker!" or "he's a psychopath!" or "he has fangs and fur!" or whatever. The best they could come up with was "I'm almost as good as he is!"

The Lion is too secretive compared to some of the relations the Emperor had with the other Primarchs. Granted, we have little information between him and the other Primarchs.
No he's not. Where do you get this from? Outside of Astelan, there's no source of this. Why, because he didn't tell his Legion that Luther almost let him get assassinated? Compare this to Horus, in "Horus Rising" dropping a bomb on Loken like "by the way, did you know the powers of the Warp can possess anyone, anywhere, given the right circumstances?" Or what about another whopper: "Let's not ever tell anyone about our two missing brothers..." :shok:

We also have what Horus believed to have been the most worthy of the title. Sanguinus. I think its safe to assume that the Lion didn't know he was going to die during the siege. As such, he may have been the next in line towards the title.
Irrelevant, since Sanguinius didn't even want the title, right?...

Probably not. This is where I lost my opinion on this matter quite a while ago. A few of the circumstances though, I think you could debate though. For one, he could have come to Terra the way Guilliman did. At that point considering he thinks the Emperor would have came out better than he did, he could have convinced the Emperor he was the rightful successer to the title.
In no way could this have happened. He was coming with Russ, and the story on the siege of Terra has Horus realizing they are hours away from arriving, when he needed days to break through the final defenses.

At the very best, the Lion could not have claimed any more glory than Russ. And even then, try telling Sanguinius (who broke a greater daemon at the gates of the Palace), Khan (who bought the Imperium the time it needed by capturing that one starport) or Dorn (who built and organized the defenses, and held the walls against Chaos) that showing up in the last second somehow trumped their accomplishments. :grin:

Afterall, Guilliman had his own empire to control.
No, that really doesn't play a factor. After the Heresy, Guilliman gave up all his power to push through the Codex and act as a High Lord of Terra. The Emperor giving him the title of Warmaster would have only enhanced his ongoing role in the Great Crusade, not removed him from his duties. Same with Horus, it's not like he gave up on his own campaigns while ordering about his brothers.

The thing though, and I know GW didn't really think about the fluff before using the "fence sitter" theory, is to try and figure out how GW and the Heresy Team could go about this business if they ever decided to go this route (which they probably wont). But non the less, I still think it is possible.
The only way it would work out is if the writing team retconned established fluff (the Lion and Russ racing back together) and had the Lion changing his mind after Isstvan V. It's really not anything GW has to worry about. On the one hand, they have numerous Codices and other sources of fluff that have people other than the Dark Angels disproving the "fence-sitter" bit by acting as witnesses to their actual deeds. On the other, you have Astellan, who at no point provides proof for his assertions (I'm not making this up; Astellan provides an accusation, Boreas calls him on it, and then Astellan--without providing any proof--launches into another accusation, as if each successive one somehow validates the previous one... and even though there's still no proof).

More or less, he probably would have made it appear like he was late to Terra and that he had been preoccupied with the Horus' threat from a distance. Just like most of us think.
It "most of us think" that way, then most of us are ignoring or forgetting the fact that it's pretty well stated where the Lion was during the Heresy. :grin:

If the Lion did not arrive with Russ, he'd need to be kept somewhere--like Guilliman was. If they did retcon the fluff and the Lion only fought the Night Lords (I think it's been said they will in an upcoming short story, at least), then that would be something. But that's not fence-sitting. If he was fence-sitting, people would question his role. What could keep him occupied? Fighting a Legion? Saving worlds from civil war? All these things would need some sort of verification. Showing up with pretty much your whole fighting strength would seem mighty suspicious.

Sorry if I came off as cool or rude. I'm kind of in a rush! :)

Cheers,
P.
 

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I definitely don't see the Lion as a traitor. Arrogant? Sure. Opportunist (wants to be warmaster after the heresy)? Sure. Traitor? I think his actions in Fallen Angels speak for themselves.

The Lion's problem was the fact that he struggled to read people and had issues distinguishing between who he could trust and who he couldn't. We see in Fallen Angels that some of his astartes are better judges of character than he is.

I think the whole 'betrayal' thing stems from the fact that the Lion left a bunch of his warriors to sit on their asses on Caliban while he went on to glory by winning campaign after campaign. I think this caused a lot of resentment towards the Lion. Also, the people of Caliban seemed to blame him for how the Imperium basically just swooped in and butchered all their resources and turn the planet into a shithole.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Dorn's reaction to Garro's news about Horus: send seven Legions to beat up on Horus, while he returned to Terra to continue with defensive fortifications. Textbook, reasonable, solid.

Lion's reaction to the same: "I'm going to counter Horus' end-game before he even gets to it."
Thats a bit skeptical. Sure it seems like that given you think he wasn't a fence sitter. But I'm looking at it from both perspectives. Its a logical thing to think if indeed he wasn't a "fence sitter." But if he was, then he wouldn't be thinking that.


Desperate? I don't see your reasoning. He didn't obtain them for Perturabo. He obtained them to end the Heresy before it even got going. Perturabo was going to Isstvan V. Horus was dug in on Isstvan V. Perturabo was a siege master. The Lion had the most potent siege weapons in the Galaxy. Ergo...
Thats considering the loyalists knew where Horus and his legions were entrenched before the battle begun. I don't think you can determine that. And no matter how you put it, they are weapons. If Perturabo had looked like the genius that blew the traitors out of the trenches, it doesn't really make the Lion look like the Hero. Unless he believed the bitter, jealous, selfish Perturabo would have just ranted about claiming he wouldn't have been able to do it without the Lion. If anything, the Lion would have done it himself and looked like the hero... if of course, they all knew the traitors were entrenched.


I would say he was solidifying his position. Obviously the Emperor would choose, and then, just as before, X number of Primarchs would probably belly-ache. Perturabo being one of the ones to notably do so the last time around, having him on his side would go a long way toward quashing the B.S.
The Lion would need a bigger piece of candy then just Perturabo's approval to solidify that position.

The consistent theme boils down to military victories, being by the Emperor the longest, and "being the brightest"... without the latter being qualified very well. Ultimately, what it boils down is that Horus had been around the longest, had the most fame, and didn't have any knocks against him. It's not like anyone could argue against him because "he has implants that make him a berserker!" or "he's a psychopath!" or "he has fangs and fur!" or whatever. The best they could come up with was "I'm almost as good as he is!"
Definitley plays a role. But even if some of the legions that were not as liked, like the Night Lords and World Eaters had racked up the same number of victories, I highly doubt they would ever be the top of the list for their Primarch's being Warmaster. Of course the Lion beats him in every sense to those legions. But then again, you probably have some more favored primarchs than him.


No he's not. Where do you get this from? Outside of Astelan, there's no source of this. Why, because he didn't tell his Legion that Luther almost let him get assassinated? Compare this to Horus, in "Horus Rising" dropping a bomb on Loken like "by the way, did you know the powers of the Warp can possess anyone, anywhere, given the right circumstances?" Or what about another whopper: "Let's not ever tell anyone about our two missing brothers..." :shok:

Lol. I liked the shocked face. Skeptisism. I mean 99% of this debate about the Lion being a fence sitter is based on that. And the thing is, much of what the Lion was doing during the Siege on terra is vague at the very most. His secret personality stems from his paranoia. All the tainted books from the knights he kept for himself. He pretty much banished his most veteran warriors from the crusade. No clear explanation towards any of these reasons. Why didn't he and his legion go to Istvaan? Why didn't he just take all the glory. He would have looked like a Hero. Pretty much an easy win, considering you have 7 legions by you and you have some pretty siege weapons you can use instead of letting Perturabo take all the beautiful credit from the battle.

Irrelevant, since Sanguinius didn't even want the title, right?...
It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again. Sanguinius does what its told. Even if he's a beautiful angel. Just like the Golden Primarch. In Horus Rising they weren't to excited about being the Pretorians of Terra. Well to bad, send me a post card.

In no way could this have happened. He was coming with Russ, and the story on the siege of Terra has Horus realizing they are hours away from arriving, when he needed days to break through the final defenses.
I question the source. Not you, I question how reliable this is, especially since this is the first time its been brought up. Whenever you have the time of course. You sound busy.

At the very best, the Lion could not have claimed any more glory than Russ. And even then, try telling Sanguinius (who broke a greater daemon at the gates of the Palace), Khan (who bought the Imperium the time it needed by capturing that one starport) or Dorn (who built and organized the defenses, and held the walls against Chaos) that showing up in the last second somehow trumped their accomplishments. :grin:
No but then again, Russ went out on his own crusade to destroy the traitors. The Lion, or at least it seems would have been more logical. And especially with a legion more intact, he's more useful to the Imperium. If indeed he was coming to Terra with Russ. And its the same with the other Legions. Again, Khan, Vulkan, and Dorn all went haywire and chased enemies all over the galaxy after the siege. Thats ultimately why Guilliman was seen as the savior of the Imperium. The only thing preventing the Lion from kind of being that better legion comparribly to the others was that incident in Caliban where half of them betrayed the Lion.

At that state in the Imperium, (all those examples of the great deeds done by those primarchs and legions) weren't celebrated to the extent they should have been because they still had much to do with the traitors. Thus Guilliman came in with the calvary despite only facing a fraction of the Word Bearers force during the Heresy. Same could have been done with the Lion.


No, that really doesn't play a factor. After the Heresy, Guilliman gave up all his power to push through the Codex and act as a High Lord of Terra. The Emperor giving him the title of Warmaster would have only enhanced his ongoing role in the Great Crusade, not removed him from his duties. Same with Horus, it's not like he gave up on his own campaigns while ordering about his brothers.
The thing is having another intact legion and primarch would have definitely helped. The codex thing is a different matter. We can't really know how the Lion would have reacted to it. But the thing is Guilliman and the Ultramarines sacrificed a lot compared to most legions during the scouring.

To the rest of your post, (I'm to tired to quote the bits and bits and explain) I'll say it again, there is no hard evidence to suggest the Lion could have been a "fence sitter." But it definitely is an idea that GW has put out there. And we have seen several differences made through the heresy.

Nice debaten, and no problem. You sounded cool, don't worry.:yahoo:
But you didn't sound rude... just tired... like me. :lazy2:
 

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I guess the conspiracy theory is that Lion betrayed the Imperium and Luther was loyal...the secret of Luther's betrayal is actually a "false secret" to cover the "real secret" that Lion was the traitor

but if Luther and the Lion actually engaged in a titanic duel, how could Luther have put up a fight without the help of Chaos?
 

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Sounds like we need a sequel to Fallen Angels, to once and for all settle the story about the Lion.

Me, I've been a dark angel fan from the beginning and am REALLY interested what happened on caliban.

My thoughts about the Lion;
He wasn't a traitor and also not a fence-sitter. He was more of a victim of the prevailing circumstances.
His story is one of lonelyness because he might be one of the brightest minds the imperium has ever known, but unable to share his grievances/discomforts. His experiences in the dark forest of Caliban has made an everlasting impression. Meeting the watchers in the dark (who knows what they are? Chaos?) is an interesting one and certainly explains why the Lion thinks he should keep certain things to himself.

When he finally meets the emperor, he is made leader of the first legion. THE FIRST LEGION, wow, that must say something about what the emperor thought about him. This is actually all the more confusing since Horus got the 16th legion and he was made Warmaster.

I think, the whole Luther situation was just a result of hurt pride and how lesser men(and yes, also Astartes) can succumb to such temptations. Honour is one of the most important factors within the dark angels chapter and the honour of Luther and Astelan was blemished, which led to the catastrophic events on Caliban.

ah well, my 2 cents :so_happy:
 

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Spoiler for First Heretic



I just think there isnt enough solid evidence or information to truly know Lion'el Johnson's actions/decisions near the end of the Horus Heresy, just like there isnt enough information to truly know whether Alpharius/Omegon sided with Horus because of chaos of for the greater good.
 

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Not really, they were his gene sons, giving him any other Legion just wouldnt have worked.
I doubt the Emperor put any significance to it
Precisely, the first legion are his gene-sons so he is the "First Primarch" sort of speak... I'm sure the emperor would have tried to do it right the first time round when he was creating the primarchs. He wouldn't have thought: "OK, well let's try this first subject and see how it goes from here...and make some corrections later on", when he made his first primarch (the Lion).

I know my theory is flawed, because Horus was number 16 created...and became the most beloved of all, but as discussed earlier in this topic maybe it was because he was found first. Maybe this was done intentionally by the chaos gods, by letting him turn up closest to Terra and therefore being rediscovered first by the Emperor.
....And maybe the Lion was flung out to a far corner of the galaxy intentionally by the chaos gods, because they thought his hostile environment (caliban) would have more time to lure him to chaos. I think that because the Lion was one of the greatest Primarchs, he was the only one (of the other 9) able to resist Chaos and the plan of the gods failed.
What if the Lion was found first? Big possibility that he would have been warmaster...me thinks anyway :)
After failing to lure the Lion to Chaos, the gods got hold of his second man to get even with him, thus creating the revolt that tore the Dark Angels Chapter apart.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I think your looking far too much into the First Legion thing. There is no evidence to suggest the Emperor made the primarchs in a particular order, infact most evidence supports that he made them all at the same time, hence why they were all at the same stage of development when they were snatched away. I'm of the opinion that the emperor simply labeled the pods 1-20 as seen in the HH series, just to designate them apart as you would expect, then the numbering simply followed onto the legions when he created them. It doesn't make sense for him to create the legions in order aswell, seeing as Horus was found first yet had his legion ready for him despite them being the XVI Legion.

I would contribute more to the Lion being a loyalist but it's a pain from my phone and the laptop keyboards fucked (sigh). All my views on it echo the ones listed my Phobeus, as from other similar threads I've seen we are of the same opinion regarding Jonson.

Jonson is listed in numerous sources as having broken the Siege aswell. More recently in Collected Visions(which at no point even hints the Lion is anything but loyal) and also in the very first bit of fluff for the Siege in the short story William King wrote about it, which is pretty much where it all stems from originally actually.
 
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