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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone.

I was looking at the rules for Abaddon's Daemon Weapon. On page 46 of the Chaos Codex, under Daemon Sword Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus it states that 'Abaddon counts as being equipped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength to 8 instead of the normal +1', and so what that means is that Abaddon's Daemon Weapon has the same profile as the undivided Daemon Weapon, except that his gives him +4 instead of +1 strength.

However it also adds at the bottom that Abaddon gets '+D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon'. Now we have already seen that whilst keeping the basic profile of the undivded DW it gives Abaddon extra strength, I would also argue that this part of the rule also cancels out the roll of 1 rule which states 'that the Daemon Weapon rebels - the model may not make any attacks' as its specifically says +D6 and a roll of 1 therefore would add 1 attack onto his base 4.

So what do you all think? I believe that in all seriousness a 275pt model should never have to forgo any attacks in CC and thats why that amendment was added to Abaddon's profile, otherwise why mention he gets +D6 attacks if he is just using the undivided DW profile with the exception of only extra strength.

Do you agree?
 

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No, I do not.

It doesn't say it's an Undivided weapon bonus. ALL Daemon Weapons get +d6 attacks and a 1 is bad.

Fuck, rolling a 1 is the only hope an opponent of AbbaI'mgonnabeatyourassadon has.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #4
Other than, you know, walking away from him.
:laugh:
Well said. Why does a Swarmlord have the ability to insta kill anyone or make you re-roll passed Inv saves in CC along with being able to make any model WS1 for two player turns? Because your not supposed to go near the damn thing lol.

Why does it specifically say that Abaddon gets +D6 attacks? That indicates that even a roll of one is an extra attack for him. It nowhere mentions that Abaddon is punished for a roll of 1 on his D6 extra attacks. Otherwise if he was supposed to just use the regular profile for and rules for a daemon weapon why not say so as is the case with Typhus.

Plus although its not going to be official or have to much of a bearing on this edition of the rules, but Abaddon's daemon weapon never rebelled in the old codex, meaning their is a precident for such a ruling.
 

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5th ed codices, they are giving more special abilities wait till chaos gets a 5th (maby abby will finally have a special rule that benefits the army)
 

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He hurts him self on a 1. Ya nuff said. The onyl le way is that his daemon weapon gets +D6 attacks notop of his daemon weapon attacks, effectivly makign it 2D6 which will only hurt him on a 1 for 1 of the dice but that would be insane a defninatly not what they ment. (that and you will lsoe alot of friends if you try to bite into that probbaly illegal cheese)
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #7
He hurts him self on a 1. Ya nuff said. The onyl le way is that his daemon weapon gets +D6 attacks notop of his daemon weapon attacks, effectivly makign it 2D6 which will only hurt him on a 1 for 1 of the dice but that would be insane a defninatly not what they ment. (that and you will lsoe alot of friends if you try to bite into that probbaly illegal cheese)
Lol, I'm not a grammer Nazis, but holy crap that is difficult to read.

He hurts himself on a 1 ... enough said (not really as you haven't shown why that is the case)

He in no way gets two D6 for his weapon, I never said that he did and nor believe that he should.

Again to reiterate the point. It explicitly states that he gets D6 attacks, at no point does it say he gets none on a role of 1.
 

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Again to reiterate the point. It explicitly states that he gets D6 attacks, at no point does it say he gets none on a role of 1.
I would say it pretty specifically says he gets no attacks on a roll of 1.
...Abaddon counts as equipped with a Daemon Weapon...
That seems rather clear and straight forward to me. The reason the rules explicitly state he gets an additional D6 attacks is so that they could show that he doesn't just have 4 attacks.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #9
I would say it pretty specifically says he gets no attacks on a roll of 1.


That seems rather clear and straight forward to me. The reason the rules explicitly state he gets an additional D6 attacks is so that they could show that he doesn't just have 4 attacks.
I see what your saying but, if its as straight forward as him having a daemon weapon, why would they need to re-emphasize that he gets D6 attacks? Sure he already has a daemon weapon; they never do the same thing for Typhus and he has a daemon weapon. Also in his case they explicitly state that it should be treated as a normal daemon weapon. Something which they don't do for Abaddon.

He gets +4 Strength and D6 attacks for his daemon weapon as well as the rest of the profile of a daemon weapon. In otherwords two amendments to the basic profile of a DW that sets him apart.
 

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The +D6 attacks is not an amendment, as it isn't listed with the other amendments. I think the note is saying he gets +D6 attacks so that people don't think he get's 2D6 attacks because he has the mark of Khorne. I'd check the Chaos Space Marines FAQ and Errata, but for some stupid reason I can't open the page listing all the 40K Errata PDF's. For Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, yes, but not 40K.
 

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He wounds himself on a roll of 1 with the new 'dex, because in the new 'dex he is no longer master of the weapon.
Somehow.
 

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If he doesn't suffer a fumble on the roll of a 1 then he doesn't get other benefits of having a Daemon Weapon, mainly that it allows no save. Which is also on the list of qualities for a Daemon Weapon you're ignoring.

I'll give him the 1 extra attack if I get all my saves from it. Good trade, glad you convinced me! :victory:
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
The +D6 attacks is not an amendment, as it isn't listed with the other amendments. I think the note is saying he gets +D6 attacks so that people don't think he get's 2D6 attacks because he has the mark of Khorne. I'd check the Chaos Space Marines FAQ and Errata, but for some stupid reason I can't open the page listing all the 40K Errata PDF's. For Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, yes, but not 40K.
Only problem is, is that by that logic they also should have told people that he doesn't get poisoned attacks, deathscreamer shooting attacks or blissgiver instant death attacks. Plus, lets face it, that part is pretty clear, he has a seperate mark from all of the other individual marks, the term 'unique mark' ends any such debate IMO. Therefore there would be no need to say "oh by the way folks he only gets D6 attacks"

He wounds himself on a roll of 1 with the new 'dex, because in the new 'dex he is no longer master of the weapon.
Somehow.
Thats sounds great and all, but if you could help end the argument (if your correct) by citing the appropriate rule or interpretation of it. I was merely stating the precident of him not having his weapon rebel was given in the last codex, even though I can appreciate that has no bearing on a new one.

Again, it specifically states in Typhus' case to treat his Daemon Weapon as a 'normal daemon weapon' with the exception that it can be used as a force weapon as well. Meaning he is a Nurgle Lord, with the MON, therefore his Daemon Weapon is the normal Nurgle Daemon Weapon as was asserted in the FAQ.

In Abaddon's case it states he 'counts as being euipped with a Daemon Weapon', which 'doubles his strength to 8 instead of the normal +1' this indicates the frame of reference so far is the undivided weapon profile and specifically the 'additional ability' confered by a DW, but with that specific amendment.

No other wording is therefore needed, but it goes on to specifically state that 'Abaddon has +D6 for his attacks' therefore amending the rule which states that a daemon weapon 'adds d6 attacks in close combat, roll a dice every time the model is about to attack. If the result is 1 ....'. There is no reason to add this extra sentence, but they do, which in both my RAW and RAI argument means that his DW does not rebel.

Why wouldn't he gain the benifits, these are two amendments to the Daemon Weapon profile, I see what your doing, but unfortunately your argument runs into the problem of him having a Daemon Weapon, which means four things

1. It requires two hands to use
2.It is a power Weapon
3. It confers an extra D6 attacks, but on a roll of 1...
4. Has an additional power that varies

Abbadon's specific character profile amends two of these points. His 'additional ability' is interpreted as being the +1 strength of the undivided weapon as it says 'its doubles his strength to 8 instead of the normal +1' which is an amendment. But why then go on to say it grants him D6 attacks? What is that extra line there for? It is a second amnedment to the daemon weapon profile, otherwise why state it all?
 

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There are major differences in the phrasing between their replacing the strength modifier of the Daemon Weapon, and noting he gets +D6 attacks.

"...a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1..."

The "instead" is the key here, as it shows that a fundamental part of how the Daemon Weapon works has been changed. Compare that with "Abaddon has +D6 Attacks from his Daemon Weapon", and you note that:
1) If they wanted to say his Daemon Weapon doesn't rebel against him, (a major difference in the working of a Daemon Weapon) they don't come right out and say it.
2) The line about his extra D6 attacks does not use "instead" to show that it is replacing/modifying an existing rule.

To be fair, I have absolutely no idea why they felt compelled to note he gets D6 extra attacks on his profile, but don't for Typhus, but I feel this is just standard GW inconsistency. I don't think they intended for him to have a Daemon Weapon with no drawbacks, as even GW would've realized they need to actually state such an alteration for players to pick up on it.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #15
There are major differences in the phrasing between their replacing the strength modifier of the Daemon Weapon, and noting he gets +D6 attacks.

"...a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1..."

The "instead" is the key here, as it shows that a fundamental part of how the Daemon Weapon works has been changed. Compare that with "Abaddon has +D6 Attacks from his Daemon Weapon", and you note that:
1) If they wanted to say his Daemon Weapon doesn't rebel against him, (a major difference in the working of a Daemon Weapon) they don't come right out and say it.
2) The line about his extra D6 attacks does not use "instead" to show that it is replacing/modifying an existing rule.

To be fair, I have absolutely no idea why they felt compelled to note he gets D6 extra attacks on his profile, but don't for Typhus, but I feel this is just standard GW inconsistency. I don't think they intended for him to have a Daemon Weapon with no drawbacks, as even GW would've realized they need to actually state such an alteration for players to pick up on it.
See this, is helpful lol. You actually took the time to look at the rule and interpret it rather than just saying no or whatever else.

I can see what your saying on both accounts, but what is that line for then? Why add it in the first place?

What it seems to be saying with a * is, Abaddon's profile gives him 4 base attacks .... 'Abaddon has +D6 attacks from his daemon weapon' as well. Problem is, is that, a roll of 1 according to this is just an extra attack with a daemon weapon (hence power weapon) and not a 'rebelling'.

The rule is bloody hazey IMO and higlights GW's notorious lack of thought about writing how rules work.
 

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Only problem is, is that by that logic they also should have told people that he doesn't get poisoned attacks, deathscreamer shooting attacks or blissgiver instant death attacks. Plus, lets face it, that part is pretty clear, he has a seperate mark from all of the other individual marks, the term 'unique mark' ends any such debate IMO. Therefore there would be no need to say "oh by the way folks he only gets D6 attacks"



Thats sounds great and all, but if you could help end the argument (if your correct) by citing the appropriate rule or interpretation of it. I was merely stating the precident of him not having his weapon rebel was given in the last codex, even though I can appreciate that has no bearing on a new one.

Again, it specifically states in Typhus' case to treat his Daemon Weapon as a 'normal daemon weapon' with the exception that it can be used as a force weapon as well. Meaning he is a Nurgle Lord, with the MON, therefore his Daemon Weapon is the normal Nurgle Daemon Weapon as was asserted in the FAQ.

In Abaddon's case it states he 'counts as being euipped with a Daemon Weapon', which 'doubles his strength to 8 instead of the normal +1' this indicates the frame of reference so far is the undivided weapon profile and specifically the 'additional ability' confered by a DW, but with that specific amendment.

No other wording is therefore needed, but it goes on to specifically state that 'Abaddon has +D6 for his attacks' therefore amending the rule which states that a daemon weapon 'adds d6 attacks in close combat, roll a dice every time the model is about to attack. If the result is 1 ....'. There is no reason to add this extra sentence, but they do, which in both my RAW and RAI argument means that his DW does not rebel.

Why wouldn't he gain the benifits, these are two amendments to the Daemon Weapon profile, I see what your doing, but unfortunately your argument runs into the problem of him having a Daemon Weapon, which means four things

1. It requires two hands to use
2.It is a power Weapon
3. It confers an extra D6 attacks, but on a roll of 1...
4. Has an additional power that varies

Abbadon's specific character profile amends two of these points. His 'additional ability' is interpreted as being the +1 strength of the undivided weapon as it says 'its doubles his strength to 8 instead of the normal +1' which is an amendment. But why then go on to say it grants him D6 attacks? What is that extra line there for? It is a second amnedment to the daemon weapon profile, otherwise why state it all?
Thought I read it in the FAQ, but I seem unable to access the FAQs on the GW site.
Sorry.
 

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Huh, having trouble accessing the GW site's FAQs as well. Luckily I have a hard copy...which doesn't address this. Probably because it is clear enough as written.

The "*" and italicized text just denote the bonus conferred by the Daemon Weapon. It is not included in the regular text describing the special rules for Drach' nyen because it doesn't change the standard DW rules (other than the actual changes listed in the weapon's description). Any other interpretation is hunting for a non-existent advantage.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #18
Well here is the full text for the rule entry:

Daemon Sword Drach'nyen and Talon of Horus

'Abaddon has been gifted the arcane blade of Drach'nyen, which contains the bound essence of a writhing warp entity, and wears the Talon of Horus, the legendary weapon of the great Warmaster. The effect of these two powerful artefacts means Abaddon counts as equipped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his Strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1, and he may also re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat.
*Abaddon has +D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon.

Why is that last entry in there? It clearly is added to his profile as is the increase to Strength 8, meaning that there is a legitimate argument for its inclusion in Abaddon's rules. They wouldn't add that for no reason, or to reiterate something which is made explicit by his having a Daemon Weapon unless it altered it somehow.

The wording is 'Abaddon has +D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon.' a roll of 1 is still a + attack and indicates nothing to suggest that it 'rebels'.

I could be a real pain in the ass and try and suggest that, if your argument that he follows the Daemon Weapon profile rules to the letter with the exception of extra Strength is correct, then this extra sentence means he rolls an extra D6 ontop of the regular D6 that he would gain with the Daemon Weapon profile.

I'm not making that argument, as it would be silly IMO, why that extra sentence is in there is clear: '+D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon' means exactly that, he has 4 base attacks plus either 1,2,3,4,5,6 on a roll of a D6.

5-10 Strength 8 power weapon attacks is not overpowered for the cost. Abaddon's only major offensive capability is in CC, on a roll of 1 he supposedly does nothing, for 275pts the argument that he could end up doing nothing seems wrong both in RAW and RAI. It's all there in the rules, IMO, people are just choosing to nerf Abaddon one of the most expensive models in the entire game.
 

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I can see how both sides of this arguement are getting their opinions.
I don't think either is empirically correct, it just depends on interpretation.
Personally, I don't use Abaddon, but wouldn't be offended if he isn't wounded on a 1... he did master his weapon, after all...
 

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*Abaddon has +D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon.

Why is that last entry in there?
If you look at Abaddon's stat line you will notice under "A" (for attacks) he has 4*. I think the asterisk in
*Abaddon has +D6 attacks from his Daemon Weapon
is actually just a reference to the player that his base attacks of 4 in his stat line should be modified by the D6 given by a Demon weapon. I do not believe the statement you are referencing was meant to be an addendum onto the special rules of his wargear, but rather a footnote at the end of his profile. The fact that it is placed after his demon weapon entry is just a coincidence due to the fact that it is the last entry in his wargear.

The slightly smaller font and italics would also indicate it is merely a footnote, and not part of the special rules.

Thus, this statement is really the only special rules that apply for his weapons.
"The effect of these two powerful artefacts means Abaddon counts as equipped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his Strength (to Strength 8, as shown in his profile) instead of the normal +1, and he may also re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat."
 
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