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Discussion Starter #1
I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me please.

I use Abaddon a lot but not convinced by this challenge malarkey and having to issue an challenge. My Dark Angels mate is loving it.

Now, I usually deploy Abaddon with cultists and I understand my cultist champion can issue a challenge, therefore, leaving Abaddon to kill loads of men after the cultist champion has fought and most probably lost. (I have only just found this out and wasted about 5 combats with Abaddon killing just one man)

But my question relates to what happens if Abaddon is on his own?

He issues a challenge and more than likely kills his target character. Probably with 4 or 5 killer blows! (Wasted on one man)

Is this the end of the combat or do the bystanders get a load of free whacks at Abaddon?

Any information or links to info on challenges or tactics on Chaos challenges would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Jon.
 

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Is this the end of the combat or do the bystanders get a load of free whacks at Abaddon?
People in a challenge are considered in B2B with each other only and cannot be attacked by/attack anyone else. Pretty sure this is specifically covered in the BRB FAQ on the GW website.
 

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But my question relates to what happens if Abaddon is on his own?
Well since he's on his own, Abaddon would not be able to refuse a challenge, not that he could anyway.

He issues a challenge and more than likely kills his target character. Probably with 4 or 5 killer blows! (Wasted on one man)
As long as those additional four or five killer blows are unsaved wounds, they count towards the combat result.

Is this the end of the combat or do the bystanders get a load of free whacks at Abaddon?
Its the end of the combat, page 64 of the rulebook under outside forces (bottom of the page) states that only the combatants in a challenge can attack each other, the rest are stuck watching (though in your example Abaddons opponent would gain a re-roll for every five models in his unit.)

Any information or links to info on challenges or tactics on Chaos challenges would be much appreciated.
Bottom of page 64 under Outside Forces, top of page 65 under Moral Support, and middle of page 65 under Assault Results are all things you'll want to be up and ready on.

As far as challenges are concerned, outside of fighting a dreadnought I don't think Abaddon has much to worry about.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks a lot for your quick and helpful responses. It all makes sense when you read it again. I did see my mates bottom lip go when I told him another character (cultist champion) can also issue a challenge :)
 

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I use the bait and switch tactic constantly. It is SO effective and can bog down uber powerful units in CC for turns at a time, specially since my marines have ATSKNF.
 

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As long as those additional four or five killer blows are unsaved wounds, they count towards the combat result.
You don't get overkill wounds though do you? If you cause 5 wounds in a challenge that would kill a seargeant you only count as causing 1 wound because only one wound is used?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I use the bait and switch tactic constantly. It is SO effective and can bog down uber powerful units in CC for turns at a time, specially since my marines have ATSKNF.
Do you care to share this tactic?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You don't get overkill wounds though do you? If you cause 5 wounds in a challenge that would kill a seargeant you only count as causing 1 wound because only one wound is used?
I would have hoped you do get overkill wounds as part of an assault result.

If you cause 5 wounds and the enemy had only one wound/life he still has to roll 5 dice that will be his armour save or higher.

If he saves just 2 then the other 3 are unsaved wounds?

Hopefully someone will clear this up.
 

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I thought if you challenge Abby your character just has to say "hey, ain't you the guy who missed cadia?"
 

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No overkill wounds in the Combat Resolution. Combat Resolution is only based on wounds taken, not wounds caused. The FAQ restates this:

Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after
fighting a challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted
when determining assault results? (p65)
A: No – only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count
The bait and switch is basically this. Most players issue challenges with their most powerful characters, because they want to win the challenge. However, if you have a squad with multiple characters you can either issue or accept a challenge with any of them. The reason to do this is exactly as has been explained above, usually your most powerful characters you want slaughtering the squad and not getting bogged down in a potential multi-turn slugfest. By swapping in the Sgt (or equivalent) you can maximize wounds inflicted on the squad by only sacrificing a minor character. You can also use this method to protect non-combat oriented special characters so that you can continue to receive their special benefits.

For example I like to use all three special characters in a Harlequin squad. The Troupe Leader (usually with Power Weapon), the Shadowseer (for the plasma grenades and psychic power), and the Death Jester (for the heavy weapon). Many players will forgo the Death Jester because he can't fire and run in the same turn and this limits his effectiveness often. I like to take him for the bait and switch. This allows my Troupe Leader to maximize kills and keeps my Shadowseer safe for his squad bonuses. (and a Death Jester is still a Harlequin so he isn't a slouch in a challenge).
 

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Never mind I will use the old bait and switch tactic
Seeing as you play Chaos yourself, this doesn't apply that much to you. But if you ever face another Chaos Marine player, be carefull with this tactic though.

A Chaos Champion does get a boon for each duel he wins after all - So you could end up buffing him needlessly.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I always forget the boon table and remember once the game has finished. I must remember when I play next on Thursday! Thing is I told my mate I can use another character/champion to issue a challenge so he's going to be aiming for the little cultist champion straight off.
 

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You choose which character takes the challenge, if he throws something simple at the cultist champion have Abby take the challenge and eat it instead. Or you could shave a few points off other things and toss a bare bones Chaos Lord/Sorc into the unit also. That would give you 3 characters to play with.
 

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Don't forget that if Abbadon is in a challenge by himself and murders the challengee he has won the combat, the enemy unit then has to check morale etc so there is a reasonable chance you can break the unit, particularly since you've just killed their sergeant.
Shame about no sweeping advance tho'
 

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A minor side point: Abaddon being stuck in combat (fearless as he is, so no chance of breaking) during the enemy shooting phase isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can kill his character during your turn to minimize his chances of running away, and he won't be able to shoot your unit. Then you slaughter the rest (that your retinue hasn't killed, or whatever), either wiping them out or breaking them.

Enemies with ATSKNF are tricky for this, since you'll probably catch any survivors and you don't want to, but that's why it's important you bring a bodyguard large or proficient enough to get a few kills of its own so Abby can mop up reliably. The balancing point is you don't want your bodyguard breaking his unit, necessarily... but against marines, you may well catch one or two survivors and polish them off handily during your opponent's turn. it's a complex calculus of chance and probability, but being spared the enemy shooting phase for a turn is fantastic.
 

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If the enemy unit has high Leadership or is Fearless, then yes indeed, I will usually use my big nasty killing machine in the mandatory Challenge IF I am the one who charged. Then I don't get shot at in the enemy's next shooting phase. Assuming I kill the enemy character first round, I can mop up 2nd round, and move on in my next turn.

But if the enemy unit has a good chance of running away and I can Sweeping Advance them (of course not with anyone wearing Terminator armor or Slow and Purposeful models) then I will often prefer to just wipe them out by Challenging with the lowliest character, and let the Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace clean house 1st round.
 

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You'll never get to sweeping advance with Abbadon around, if a unit contains a single model that can't sweep then no one can.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I only really play against Dark Angels at the moment so I can't kill using sweeping advance anyway.
 
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