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But why would guilliman have prepared to fight though? He was only going to burn down the largest jewel in the Word Bearers crown of the most jealous and zealous of his brothers.

There is no rhyme or reason as to why he'd have thought that the Word Bearers would have attacked, because they're weak and slow and the worst astartes ever.

I'm embarrassed I'm having to be this overly obviously sarcastic too.

Fuck sake, it's less like arguing with a Brick wall, Brick walls at least have a purpose in life.
I'm aSsuming the whole brick wall thing was directed at me, and fine that's your opinion. But now I know your parents couldn't have been nothing more then gorillas, as no one could raise a child this badly.

That or you have never had a gf.
 

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What you choose to find insult in is of no concern to me.

As for gorillas, unlikely, the balding would make me the unluckiest gorilla ever. Poor chap.

As for never having had a "gf", eh, I'm adult enough to type it out fully. But considering the maturity of your comebacks, I'm going to publicly apologise for giving shit to a 3 year old.

Now, please go play in the sand pit.
You just made it 10 times worse for yourself hehe
 

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Discussion Starter #64
C'mon boys ! Play nice, all of you.

For the matter currently at hand, I think both party has a point : if the emperor would have expected a fight at Monarchia, he would have been escorted by the Space Wolves.

But his escort had to evactuate many whole city, quickly and rather cleanly, a work that the wolves were unsuited for.

Another point is concerning Aeonid Thiel, who, when the battle of Calth Began, as already on censure BUT about to be interviewed by Guilliman. Who know what would have happen if Thiel had the opportunity to defend his POV with Guilliman ?

Maybe the matter was about to be treated by Guilliman, but too slowly.

But the fact that the Primarch had to have someone else thinking of it for himself is a little beyond me.

But then again, micro-managing the Ultramar Empire, more than two hundred thousands ultramarines, their military units and their fleets while on a great crusade can be a titanic work even fr a Primarch I guess.

I always tough that one of the reason some stupid decision was made by the emperor was that he had a lack of empathy as much as waaaay TOO MUCH works.... :p
 

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C'mon boys ! Play nice, all of you.

For the matter currently at hand, I think both party has a point : if the emperor would have expected a fight at Monarchia, he would have been escorted by the Space Wolves.

But his escort had to evactuate many whole city, quickly and rather cleanly, a work that the wolves were unsuited for.

Another point is concerning Aeonid Thiel, who, when the battle of Calth Began, as already on censure BUT about to be interviewed by Guilliman. Who know what would have happen if Thiel had the opportunity to defend his POV with Guilliman ?

Maybe the matter was about to be treated by Guilliman, but too slowly.

But the fact that the Primarch had to have someone else thinking of it for himself is a little beyond me.

But then again, micro-managing the Ultramar Empire, more than two hundred thousands ultramarines, their military units and their fleets while on a great crusade can be a titanic work even fr a Primarch I guess.

I always tough that one of the reason some stupid decision was made by the emperor was that he had a lack of empathy as much as waaaay TOO MUCH works.... :p
Apologies for my behavior.

I honestly dont think Guilliman would have been to hard on Thiel...I mean, in the novel, Guilliman was suppose to deal with thiel, and when he finally talked with him, he totally shrugged off the whole Censure thing, and instead talked to thiel about Lorgar.

In the short audio "Strategem" Thiel inspires guilliman, and makes guilliman realize that all of his lifes doctrine had been flawed.
 

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Loathe as I am to jump into the middle of this, Monarchia = Emperor and Malcador and not Horus, right? I feel like Horus didn't have much of a hand in this at all.
 

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That still makes no sense.

To identify your strengths, you also need to identify your weaknesses. Take for example Power Armour. They know that the weak points are the visors and joints because there's no plating there.

That is the very basic of knowing the theory of taking down marines.

When they are in training, punching another astartes in the chest is going to do nothing, because of the fused and reinforced bone of the ribcage - you can't stab them in the heart or lungs. They have reduced reliance on things like the intestinal system - that leaves at a guess from pov either along the armpit or the neck.

Considering that this Primarch is Sun Tzu, Julius Caesar, Duke of Wellington, Napoleon, Alexander, Hannibal and Rommel all rolled into one, I find it singularly disconcerting that even considering the events on Monarchia he didn't envisage the potential for attacking legions.

The Space Wolves considered themselves "Executioners in the Emperor's role", and that the Ultramarines new that time would come for them to give up the way of the warrior, they have to be intelligent enough to realise that time would have come to kill other legionaries. Why there were no theoreticals for that is pretty criminal for the point of view of a commander.

You can state that "you can't compare with a far future military of transhuman supersoldiers", but from pretty much every high tech super advanced military film and scifi ever pretty much consists of such technology reneging on the humans, without that being a metatype thinking, for such highly capable characters (imagine Littlefinger in the Game of Thrones or Varys with their intelligence and cognitive speed in recognizing the change of political landscape) to not think "oh shit, what if putting Horus in charge of the majority of the Imperium's armed forces was a bad thing?" (which Guilliman, among others, thought in the first place), why was there nothing in place?

I can't exactly say that they'll have imagined a massive starship crashing into a planet and then having the systems star turned into a poisonous radioactive light is pretty out there, but repeatedly harping on the point that there was no "theoreticals" from a wider perspective is absolute bullshit, as is the reason for why Thiel was marked for Censure.

I don't have that many other complaints about it, but that massive amount of self evident logic gap is annoying for me.
I agree. I think many in the series try to depict the loyalist loyalist as innocent and undoubtly loyal to the Imperium and Emperor. Horus Rising showed Horus' concerns about having the legions in line. It just seems weird that at one point we have many legions who are skeptical and jealous of the new Warmaster and then, all of a sudden, they don't know what the fuck is going on.

The Ultramarines not knowing that is pretty absurd. They embarrassed the Word Bearers and played it so coy in that novel that it does stir my guts.

The realistic view of the legions, which goes back from the beginning should really have been that all the legions were skeptical of one another, and even when they chose sides. Thats absolutely realistic, and I believe we are seeing some of that especially in the traitors but even the Lion and Gilliman seem to be falling into that.
 

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I agree. I think many in the series try to depict the loyalist loyalist as innocent and undoubtly loyal to the Imperium and Emperor. Horus Rising showed Horus' concerns about having the legions in line. It just seems weird that at one point we have many legions who are skeptical and jealous of the new Warmaster and then, all of a sudden, they don't know what the fuck is going on.

The Ultramarines not knowing that is pretty absurd. They embarrassed the Word Bearers and played it so coy in that novel that it does stir my guts.

The realistic view of the legions, which goes back from the beginning should really have been that all the legions were skeptical of one another, and even when they chose sides. Thats absolutely realistic, and I believe we are seeing some of that especially in the traitors but even the Lion and Gilliman seem to be falling into that.
Tho, it is stated in KNF that guilliman was happy and understanding of horus becoming warmaster. So why would Guilliman think that, Horus, who he believes a noble and worthy commander, would betray him and the Imperium?

And sure, Guilliman wasnt fond of lorgar, alpharius, the khan ect, but i doubt he would have thought they would turn against him, esspecially when he wasnt aware of chaos.
 

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Tho, it is stated in KNF that guilliman was happy and understanding of horus becoming warmaster. So why would Guilliman think that, Horus, who he believes a noble and worthy commander, would betray him and the Imperium?

And sure, Guilliman wasnt fond of lorgar, alpharius, the khan ect, but i doubt he would have thought they would turn against him, esspecially when he wasnt aware of chaos.
Could be jealousy, or worse... hubris.

I could see Guilliman thinking his ideology to be perfect and right for all mankind... After all, he almost went to war with what the series describes as the most honest of the Primarchs... Dorn.

When an individual is set in believing his doctrine, ideology, etc... are the best... When that individual "knows" they are the best, they will stop at nothing to enforce it upon everyone else. The Emperor of mankind did this mind you.
 

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Could be jealousy, or worse... hubris.

I could see Guilliman thinking his ideology to be perfect and right for all mankind... After all, he almost went to war with what the series describes as the most honest of the Primarchs... Dorn.

When an individual is set in believing his doctrine, ideology, etc... are the best... When that individual "knows" they are the best, they will stop at nothing to enforce it upon everyone else. The Emperor of mankind did this mind you.
Good points.

I personally believe guilliman to be the best leader(even above the emperor). He has all the qualities imo. He cares for his sons, can surely build an empire, and in general cares for the well being of humans. Him being the only primarch to have an actual family makes himself very human
 

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Good points.

I personally believe guilliman to be the best leader(even above the emperor). He has all the qualities imo. He cares for his sons, can surely build an empire, and in general cares for the well being of humans. Him being the only primarch to have an actual family makes himself very human
I tend to agree with your POV.

IMHO, I think the emperor choosed Horus as Warmaster because Horus was truly competent, but also because he knew Horus would be hurt a lot if he didn't choose the Lunar Wolves's primarch.

Alas, by that time, he had already stomped the ego and the feelings of Lorgar...
 

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I tend to agree with your POV.

IMHO, I think the emperor choosed Horus as Warmaster because Horus was truly competent, but also because he knew Horus would be hurt a lot if he didn't choose the Lunar Wolves's primarch.

Alas, by that time, he had already stomped the ego and the feelings of Lorgar...
It is mentioned in Know no fear that it was only ever between guilliman and horus for warmaster, but Guilliman already had his own empire to look after. He had already evolved beyond warmaster.
 
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