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I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.

No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.

When you get a closer look on Maccrage inthe Unremembered empire, it looks more like a modern country of the early twenty century.

And John Grammaticus looks more like a cross between James Bond and Jason Bourne, with a dash of Zakalwe from Consider Phlebas indeed.

That doesn't stop neither to be awesome, tough.
Well your entitled to you opinion
 

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Thordis
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I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.

No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.

When you get a closer look on Maccrage inthe Unremembered empire, it looks more like a modern country of the early twenty century.

And John Grammaticus looks more like a cross between James Bond and Jason Bourne, with a dash of Zakalwe from Consider Phlebas indeed.

That doesn't stop neither to be awesome, tough.
there was a 20th century country that was ruled by one leader but devided into parts with their own representative caretakers like roman senates? because that is what 30th Millenium Ultramar was.
 

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40k is pretty much a total rip-off of everything. Ever.

Double Eagle is a blatant 40k retelling of the Battle of Britain. Does that make it a bad book? Hell no! :good:
Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.

As for lokens comments regarding theoreticals and practicals, I'm not entirely sure what he's on about. Racks room talk is pretty much all about what happens if the Russians Attack, or where they're going to come from, or what if it's the Americans, or what we're going to do about Africa.



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Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.
I watched that steaming turd once and the historian in me nearly suffered multiple aneurisms......
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I watched that steaming turd once and the historian in me nearly suffered multiple aneurisms......
I go off the thread a little more, but as an history afficionados I do know that history and movies doesn't mix very well.

Too much different goals, and too much imperatives between the two.
 

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Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.

As for lokens comments regarding theoreticals and practicals, I'm not entirely sure what he's on about. Racks room talk is pretty much all about what happens if the Russians Attack, or where they're going to come from, or what if it's the Americans, or what we're going to do about Africa.
But theoreticals and pTactical a are something each individual member of the ultramarines come up with. There isn't an army in the world that does this
 

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Rattlehead
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But theoreticals and pTactical a are something each individual member of the ultramarines come up with. There isn't an army in the world that does this
Vaz is saying that no, troopers in modern armies do frequently come up with independent theoreticals and frankly, I think his word on that is more valid than yours from what I know of you both.
 

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Vaz is saying that no, troopers in modern armies do frequently come up with independent theoreticals and frankly, I think his word on that is more valid than yours from what I know of you both.
Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.
I'm sure this statement it's not having anything to do with the fact your canadian ! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

(Just joking.)
 

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I'm sure this statement it's not having anything to do with the fact your canadian ! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

(Just joking.)
Well i wont deny i am patriotic

But ever since ww1 us canucks have been regarded as some of the best.

The germans even called us storm troopers!
 

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Rattlehead
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Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.
"Comparable to" does not mean "Exactly equal to in every respect".
 

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I dunno, I thought if Know No Fear was a war film the Ultramarines would be Americans. Sure, they're not Americans, but I thought that they would be if it was a war film (which the book felt like).
 

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As a total aside, I learned (thanks to the General Election in the UK) that "theoretical" and "practical" are terms used by statisticians when analysing polling.
So, uh. That's completely irrelevant. But something I noted.

The idea is surely just a 'Ultramarine-y' way of referring to something many militaries do (as well as problem-solvers in other fields).

I'm reminded of a section in a Neal Stephenson novel when a US marine who achieved hero status for defeating a Japanese infantry assault was interviewed about his tactics when presented with such a situation, so others could learn from it.
He answered "You kill the ones with the swords first"
The interviewer asked if this was a strategy based on the theory that the one with the sword was the officer of the unit. They reply was
"No, you ******* it's because they run at you with a ******** sword! You ever had someone running at you with a ******** sword?!"

Theory meets practical.
 

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As a total aside, I learned (thanks to the General Election in the UK) that "theoretical" and "practical" are terms used by statisticians when analysing polling.
So, uh. That's completely irrelevant. But something I noted.

The idea is surely just a 'Ultramarine-y' way of referring to something many militaries do (as well as problem-solvers in other fields).

I'm reminded of a section in a Neal Stephenson novel when a US marine who achieved hero status for defeating a Japanese infantry assault was interviewed about his tactics when presented with such a situation, so others could learn from it.
He answered "You kill the ones with the swords first"
The interviewer asked if this was a strategy based on the theory that the one with the sword was the officer of the unit. They reply was
"No, you ******* it's because they run at you with a ******** sword! You ever had someone running at you with a ******** sword?!"

Theory meets practical.
Thats interesting about the politics thing. I guess that's where abnett got his inspiration from. So it's a British influence and had nothing to do with military. Very cool
 

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Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.
Not in so many words. That's putting a grand sounding name on it.

Considering that FPGRM was based in Arbroath, as in, the UK's nuclear submarine base, and the single greatest threat to any "theoretical" Russian invasion of the land, it was customary to have various plans and contingencies, with back ups for if they failed.

I can't tell you the number of times (seriously, I can't, it's a legal thing) when I've fished out Special Boat Service personnel performing a probe on our defence, or caught Special Air Service parachuting in, or any other various numbers of "random passersby" who "just so happen" to have ended up taking a picture in a spot that's not particularly helpful to security.

These happen from learning via experience of doing them wrong, but from people saying "what if".

One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.



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Discussion Starter #40
One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.
Tough your argument is quite valid, I would like to point that the Ultramarine legion have been forged by one of the most "orthodox" Primarch.

Space Wolves are seen as clinically insane savage but loyal to the end, and World Eaters as... okay, you got me there ! :laugh:

Seriously, the World eaters were seems to been quite loyal, even if savage. Nobody among the imperium seemed to imagine that chaos could infect a Primarch (Which is dum, I'm the first to admit it...) because the imperium citizen thinked they knew all there is to know about everything...

Then, I'm not sure the Ultramarines knew about the night of the wolf, they didn't seem to know about the red hand and the murder duel of the Night Lords...
 
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